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[ox-en] Palaces for the people - a productive argument with Lion Kuntz

from the arcology newsgroup.

It can be more productive to talk one time to a person that you do not
agree with but who is honest and straightforward, than to swim in your own
soup and talk a hundred times to your likeminded without getting anything

This is such an example: a real challenge to be met, and many question of
high importance are addressed here. I would like for all of us to take up
Lions challenge and "lead by example".

Andrius K. and I had a very decisive talk on the telephone just now. I am
glad that we are looking in the direction of adopting PM Wiki and go
online very soon with the work on the "pattern language for global
villages" at I consider this endavour a universal
resource for people who are builders of the new habitats that allow us to
fully participate in human culture and yet stay grounded in our natural
and physical existence. And yes, we need OpenEco (presented by Rick)  and
OpenLearning (Andrius) (and IMHO also Oekonux) and some
complementary brands to fulfill also our GlobalVillages mission! 

Global Villages, by their very definition, are NOT brought about by real
estate developers. They are grounded in the collective imagination of
people and they might commission a developer to build them. But they
should know what they want - and how they want it. Lots of knowledge work
to be done!

I like Lions honesty and his struggling with the issue much more than any
bla-bla about Open Source of people who are not really commited. But I
wish that we do everything to prove the assumptions wrong that things
cannot emerge out of creative networks.

To introduce Lion shortly. He wrote: " I have a conceptual vision which
has "co-housing" features and "arcology" features. As I have two
sometimes-fatal health problems I don't see myself as the long-term
director or dictator or charasmatic leader of anything. I hope to see a
project start before the grim reaper taps my shoulder."

Although his website is down, I fould find material at some of the
addresses; highly recommended!!!
proposal submitted for discussion at the 5th International
Ecocity conference, Post-Conference Internet Forum, Feb-June 2003.
Proceedings are published here:

----- Original Message -----

		Samstag, 13. November 2004 13:27:47 Uhr
Bulk Message
From:		arcology
Subject:	Re: [arcology] Re: Introduction:PALACES
To:		arcology

--- Franz Nahrada <f.nahrada> wrote:

lionkuntz  wrote in arcology on Donnerstag, 4.
November 2004 at 09:38 Uhr +0100:

MY approach to that problem is to have something of potential value,
with a condition attached on its transfer of ownership. Anyone who
want that value can trade me something of theirs of equal value. In
practice, that translates into an NGO structure (a non-profit
corporation) which is a development corporation which is formed for
building purposes. I offer a plan plus some proprietary construction
methods and patents -- those who want that agree to make the NGO with
strict non-corruption clauses to keep the conniving and greedy and
sneaky for being interested.

Lion, I looked at your website and I feel it is full of inspirations.
pyramid shape relates to urban hill concepts from Justus Dahinden to
Richard Levine. And yes, we need to re-invent "shared space". Your
concepts are inviting patterns, they give liberty to other patterns to
filled in, yet....

What I do not agree with you at all about and what I really feel sad
are the persistent ideas about patenting and value. What has brought us
into the current global disaster is nothing else but the inherent
contradictions of the economic value structure.

What has brought us into the "current global disaster" is people wanting
better on the
deal than they give -- that can be "plunder", or it can be
cheating/freeloading. As
soon as people accept that they are entitled to opportunity to fair trade,
and nothing
more, we have solved a lot of our problems. Because people want more that
they are
willing to give, we begrudgingly form governments to stop thieves and
scoundrals from
grabbing more than they give. Even with a pretense of civility, we need
yet more
government, more laws, more lawyers because people cheat on their
contracts and grab
somebody else's brainsweat without giving equal value in return. Things
are not
perfect, but with 6,000,000,000 of YOU and just one of me, I need the
provided by governments and laws to keep from being picked clean down to

One out of 100 of YOU is a clinically defined sociopathic criminal, and I
don't have
easy methods to know who is and isn't one.

... big snip ...

"Proprietory methods and patents" will thus today only attract the very
kind of people that you do not want.

 Open Source as the method of choice is spreading like wildfire in many
domains of human construction and endavours.

As a founder-member of the computer revolution I put megabytes of
shareware out and
received zero. I put gigabytes of data online and got spam and stalkers. I
don't need a
lecture - lead by example.

It has proven successful in
software building, the next stages are creating intentional intellectual
commons like Wikipedia, the next thing will be shared knowledge in
decentralizes producing. Frithjof Bergmann has shown that "high tech
providing" is possible. It also is possible to share the task of
large structures.

Lead by example. Talk is cheap. Especially on the internet. Palaces is
forming an NGO
as we correspond. My deal is met fairly painlessly. Next step is
transferrence. Those who have no track record of fair dealing are outside
looking in.
Sociopaths gravitate to all positions of power -- not all of them have the
and cunning, nor opportunity, to be presidents of countries or CEOs --
some are petty
bureauocrats with minor fiefdoms. The screening process is: talkers walk,
doers are
invited inside.

Labor does not need an external organizing force any
more, automation has liberated us to to constructions and algorithms and
to share them widely.

This is just so much hogwash. Real buildings on planet earth cast shadows,
materials which has to be transported to site, physics must be obeyed or
buildings fall
down. Palaces is leading the way to a new lifestyle, a higher quality of
life, the 21st
century architecture evolved out of all the lessons of history. That takes
(which you are not donating) which cost money (which you are not
donating), followed by
planning, followed by execution of the plan. There is no "radical" method
for doing
these things -- it requires putting one foot ahead of the other plodding
towards a goal
until the goal is achieved. Computers just sit there and nothing gets
built until
reality is invoked one foot in front of the other, plodding towards goal.

So far, no big thing. Plan and Methods (unspecified) in exchange for
simple NGO (unspecified).

Or could you mean something like the GPL, which uses the proprietory
character of knowledge to create a juridical "hack" with the constraint
share the outcome? Is that your intention? Please clarify.

Palaces has combinations of the known and the unknown. The known is public
domain (or
possibly somebody's proprietary method under temporary patent
restrictions). The
unknown is inventions which I will not approve for misuse, and cannot be
pursuaded to
change my mind. These are transferred under restrictions to those
agreeable to
restrictions. Had I put my inventions in the public domain three decades
ago, the
Soviet Union would still be standing intact. I will not contribute to that
greater harm
because of some lesser good.

Buckminster Fuller collected $1,000,000 per year for a decade from the US
Military who
used his Geodesic Domes for DEWS radar instillations across the North. The
biggest use
of Fuller Domes worldwide has been military.

... snip...
Everybody gets their spot in the sun on a fairly equal basis, but
physics dictates that 25% of everybody gets stuck on the "north" side
(or polar side farthest from the equator). Sorry folks -- I can't
violate the laws of physics to satisfy fantasy.

Sorry it is just a minor question to ask: Why then do you insist this
must be needed for habitation?

Lots of people prefer the shady side in hot weather. Artists often prefer
the northern
light. There are people who will take these north-side of the building
units. Because
of low profile, sunlight does reach the deck part of the days, and
reflectors can be
worked out. Do the shadow studies -- I'll share my 3D models, which uses
OpenFX (an
open source software).

From that most basic dictate on architecture I can figure out how to
give 3.2 hectares of indoor space on one hectare of land foundation (a
FAR of 3.2), basically your ordinary city block, and house 118
families in 3 to 4 bedroom units. If that was all, it's still no big
thing, but I can add free utilities for life after a one year payback
of your utilities package, and a one year mortgage payoff at
conventional market rates for similar sized living quarters in the
greater area. That's a little harder to accomplish, making my deal a
little greater in value.

Why should people not be able to create the deal for themselves?

Nothing stopping you. Tell me where your website is and I'll look at it,
maybe sign up
ON YOUR TERMS if I agree to them. YOU tell me how I can pay the equivilent
of market
rate rent for 12 months and clear my mortgage debt for life. I'm all ears.
Tell me how
you figured out to pay off the utilities for life in one year of payments.

Or create your own deal, as you said.

To go the next step, I can show you how to be autonomous off-the-grid
for water, sewer, electricity, heating/cooling, cooking gas, and
perhaps some vehicle fuel. This autonomy is solar-based, some sme
locations are more favorable and some less viable under current
condition. For those in sunny climes, this adds some practical value.

There is a movement already going on in solar roof technology. (Rick
Nelson). Why not combine the ingenuity of many people?

No bubbles on my roof. Don't need 'em, don't want 'em. Nelson's bubbles
don't increase
the world's supply of solar cell waferstock, don't electrolyze water for
cooking gas
and heating fuel. They are bandaids on hemmorhages, and they don't fool
me. He's
Canadian, and it probably works better in his latitude, but the majority
of the human
race lives between 45 degrees noth and south, and most of that gets good
daily sunshine
for multicrystaline PV which works somewhat even on cloudy days.

For those concerned about green materials, I can accomplish this with
100-year lifespan design which reduces construction waste products to
one third over the 33-year replacement disposable housing now being
built, and the savings are much greater when other architectural
features are accounted for.

Well in a way you are talking from the position of appropriated
power of capital. More power to the concepts you are presenting, but
you tell us about the acomplishments of how many people you are
There is a whole community of people from John Todd to
who are turning our complete "cradle to grave" production system into a
dynamics of reproducing cycles. What if they all get patented?

Don't have the faintest idea what you are talking about. I don't have a
conflict with
most patents, but a couple I would licence. Prior art precludes people
patenting most
of what I need so their patents are narrow and irrelevent to my goals.

... snip... but I was most concerned in getting "something"
that people could see to begin to grasp what words don't always
suffice to tell.

I think that these pictures together with the work of many other
visionaries have to be brought out in a collective effort to the masses;
what must be demonstrated is that the NGO-self-organizing approach is at
least much more powerful than in previous times, and that the technology
and communication abilities make it easier for people to come together
act, not harder.

I hate NGOs. I wouldn't use one except that it is the shortest path to
this goal, and
my hourglass is running out.

These PALACES can be infill in existing cities wherever a city block
opens up for development at a price under $3,000,000 for the land (and
hopefully much less, but realistically not likely). They can be
standalone on rural lots of slightly over 4 acres minimum, or
clustered in groups as an eco-village. They could be clustered much
larger, and I made webpages illustrating up to 1,000,000 population
cities. Please remember that I used the quick method of
"rubber-stamping" a model once made to indicate many more buildings,
but neither I nor most other people want to live in identical
replications. I expect individual variations in color, in cladding,
and some variations in fractalness of building forms, but the
over-riding principle of I don't shade your building, and you don't
shade mine, so we both have full access to solar energy places some
hight and shape restrictions.

That, in my view, is a great support for a more liberated concept of
arcology. And it is not new which is a positive notion as you also
It has been done in the most italian hilltowns, like Todi in Umbria, it
allows for incredible individual freedom within the framework of
collectively built environment. And  it is an art!

Individual PALACES have some Solari 

do you mean Soleri?

Liver malfunction equates to intermittent dyslexia. My spelling getting
attrocious is a
sign to check my blood glucose and take interventions. Communications
scientists have
determined that most intelligent people can readily grasp the meanings if
just the
beginning and ending letters of words are provided. You'll figure out what
is important
and what is not... or you won't.
thermodynamics and green materials
as core concepts. Unfortunately I cannot agree with Solari that
vehicles need to be excluded -- he just hasn't thought through the
service vehicles and delivery issues that humans require, in my
opinion. Therefore this is not a strict adaption of archologies. I do
believe that having 800,000 square feet of public/commercial/business
space within one block walk of one's home does cut down commuting for
errands, and having 39 blocks of of covered malls of commercial,
businesses, offices, shopping, services, restaurants, schools, within
three and a half blocks radius means that 80% of all commutes can be
eliminated. That is a very arcology-esque aspect in ecocities.

I feel that you did not stress the point of public transportation enough

I put 39 blocks of shopping malls, schools, offices, distributed
government services
(post offices, police substations) within three and a half blocks of where
you live.
80% of everything you could want: dentists, boutiques, restaurants,
churches, theaters,
are within 8 blocks of where you live. With diagonal pedi-lanes through
key commute
corridors PALACES, you can walk seven blocks to get someplace that would
take you 14
blocks of driving. AFTER you have reviewed the proposal, then let's hear
the criticism
that I overlooked public transit. Name me one other planner who not only
planned a
building rental vehicle fleet stationed in every building, but also solved
the hydrogen
fueling problems that will keep them all running with zero carbon
emissions out the

There would also be a park within two blocks of every home, and four
of five parks to chose from in a 3.5-block radius. (3.5 block radius
means one square kilometer, or seven by seven blocks in a city grid
most people have some experience to relate to conceptually). ...

Why do we need larger GRIDS at all? Why not be gentle and diverse and a
little bit rounder? What is the deeper reason for you to be so
in the large scale, and not triangular or hexagonal like for example

PALACES are designed  as autonomous units. They will fit in existing
grids, say
replacing some shopping center that went out of buiness, or replacing an
school building the local government sells off at a bargain for a
revitalization plan component. Block by block the bleeding hemmorhages of
will be removed and replaced, and the existing grids will still be there.

In new town and new ecocities, one can be more freeform, but there are
still good
reasons to cluster PALACES and the spacing is based on non-shadowing of

When enough autonomous PALACES are built there will no longer be a
critical mass left
to support municipal sewage systems which mingle industrial chemical
wastes with feces
making a witches brew of bad news that can never be recycled or cleaned up
Then the polluters will be exposed and made to pay for their harm
themselves -- it will
not be "externalized" economics (cheating on the deal). When enough
buildings are
autonomous for power there will be no voting blocks to build pollution
giants. When
enough people are getting their fuel from water there will be no voting
authorizing invasions of weaker countries with subsequent mass murder of
civilians to
run their buses and commuter trains.

The land that is already wrecked by people is the best place to put
PALACES, and that
means existing cities trandformed. They are mostly already laid out in
grids, so grids
are a historic inevitability for a long time to come.

If the moderators do not consider this "arcology" enough for this
discussion group, I can resppect their decision. I do note that
mentions of co-housing for 20 people at a time seem to attract no
resentment, so I hardly think this is less appropriate when discussing
"arcologies" conceptualized to house 5,000 to 1,000,000 at a time.

The hard issue is simply this: how can 5000 to 1000000 people be brought
into consnensus about their basic built structure.

That never needs to be a concern. One PALACE houses 118 average
households. That is a
practical number of people. In today's world, developers make speculative
units and put
them on the market, then the individuals buy a unit. No concensus of 5,000
or 1,000,000
occurs. With PALACES the question is this: are you willing to cut costs by
engaging in
self-help building within a planned development? Yes or No.

Once it is built the homeowner's association votes on paint colors,
management hirings,
much like a co-op, co-housing, or condos development. With 10% of
Americans living in
mobile homes, there's a lot of customers for PALACES before needing to
worry about
prima donnas concerned about handling blueprints most of them don't know
how to read.

The people HAVE SPOKEN. The CONSENSUS is in. People want a FUTURE. PALACES
gives them
an important component of having a future. Pollution is out, free energy
is in;
protection from the elements is dealt with; wasteful consumption of
resources is
avoided. It is not required to keep polling and re-polling the public --
they told what
they wanted, and the most important element is "a FUTURE".

Many here think it is
impossible and this is why we have to rely on structures of command and
control that are currently showing that they are occupied with
different businesses...:-( I do not believe that, and I am glad that you
also want to make such structures possible. 

In my opinion it has been shown in a nutshell by Kraftwerk 1 in Zurich.
They have simply created a "cohousing community of cohousing
It is a fractal model where general questions could be outsourced to a
larger construction body. Arcologists should make pilgrimages there.

I see this PALACES pathway as far more variable and practical. It can
deliver new housing on the market in the low working class price range
for infill, small ecovillage, larger ecovillage, and ecocity.

I would like to invite you at any time you can to present this concept
here in Vienna, in the birthland of the "palaces for people". The term
coined at the International Housing Symposium in Vienna 1926, referring
the one single example of "Garden City Jedlesee", later renamed Karl
Hof. This is just opposite the hotel that I am running. The concepts at
the time were revolutionary because of the amount of sunlight which was
granted for the blocks.

Look at some pictures here:

 I am building up a conference facility in the Karl Seitz Hof at a dance
school location and we would be honored to show that the concept which
so succesfully realized here (PALACE FOR THE PEOPLE) has a future in the
21st century. We want to combine here the best ideas of our time for an
urban and rural renaiscance built on Post-market, communal structures
empowered by open Source and collaborating with the business world. Does
this sound interesting to you?

My poor health precludes travel in the foreseeable future. Maybe next

My innovative technologies use materials with no forseeable
depletions, utterly fireproof, earthquake safe to 8.0 shock, can be
made flood resistent to two stories (beyond that, you better think in
terms of ARK-ologies). Nothing with bioactive toxicity is required and
all materials can be crushed and recycled as aggragates for future

If this ISN'T the place for this discussion, than I welcome
suggestions of other fora where this might be better received.

Sincerely, Lion Kuntz

As long as you talk about patenting, things will not be really hot items
to be discussed.

Agreed. I can't discuss them anyway, but I tell why I can't discuss them.

If you are showing that this a way to ensure maximum
access by trading ideas for their realisation,  I would be glad to have
this discussion continued here ;-) - But please, it should be broken
into practical issues.


Comprehensiveness requires the broad overview before the details can be
discussed. That
part is accomplished. My previous webhost did me a service by cancelling
my website
without notice -- it shocked me out of complaciency. I meant to make a new
based on feedback I received through groups like this. I just kept putting
it off. Now
I am forced to build a new website and I get to do it incorporating new
material that I
didn't explain in sufficient details in the first go-round.

Sincerely, Lion Kuntz
Santa Rosa, California, USA
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - DOWN TEMPORARILY.
webhost went out of business, stay tuned for new site. (Still here.)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Organization: projekt

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