Re: [ox-en] Re: Free Software and payment
- From: Stefan Merten <smerten oekonux.de>
- Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 08:53:41 +0100
Hi Markus and all!
Last month (40 days ago) Markus wrote:
thx for your thoughts.
Thanks for yours and for the interesting debate. I'll reply only to a
few points where I think I still can say something useful.
i took some of your critisism (too complex
distribution mechanism) and added it to the VN_CRIT document.
Fine.
Don't you think that if the joomla people would see it that way you'd
know about it? On SourceForge for instance you can ask for donations
for your project. Do they?
I put that question intentionally. I really wanted to know whether it
is actually their point or it is rather yours. Your reply - which
actually didn't reply to my question - testifies that it is actually
your point:
the main problem im having with voluntary donations is that most people
dont donate even if the "should". i, myself, am not an exception.
basically all the money that i have available i use for myself or i put it
into vn. even if i truly admire and benefit from the joomla work, i do not
donate as long as im not forced too. given my limited resources, i just
see money more effectively invested that way. dont know if i should be
blamed for that or not. on the other hand, if joomla would introduce
mandatory membership fees, for instance, coupled with a transparent
mechanism (like we have) who gets the money and for what purpose, i would
gladly pay *without* any negative feelings and i full heartedly defend the
fees against anyone who complains about them.
I perfectly understand what you are talking about. And I'd also think
that this is a rather German attitude: Don't spend money unless you
are forced to. I heard that for instance in the US culture private
donations happens more often. In the German (European?) culture these
private donations are typically replaced by state money.
However, my point was to check what those already doing the job
actually desire. I still maintain my position that the vast majority
of Free Software projects does not see your problem as an important
one. So I'd be careful whether casting your problem onto such projects
really helps someone.
On a more general level I think what is necessary here is the ability
to only take without feeling guilty. Indeed such a concept is
something which is completely refused in any society / social system
based on limitedness or even scarcity. Thus it is very deeply rooted
in the Western culture also mixing the Christian concept of guilt
nicely into this. I think if we think GPL society we need to keep in
mind that also in the minds of people there will be some change. For
instance to only take without feeling guilty - as I do on a daily
basis with lots of Free Software.
but money would give me the necessary independence to work
focussed
on the achievement of the goals.
Well, I think this is wishful thinking.
well, i can only speak for myself of course, but this is not only wishful
thinking but a fact. one cannot generalise this because my attachment to
the project is much stronger than that of all the other people that are
involved in it. but is my personal attachment to the project so different
from the attachment of a core os developer and "his/her" project?
The wishful thinking was meant about the independence thing. I'm
totally convinced that your relation to your project is the same as
for a Free Software developer for his/her project. Otherwise you
wouldn't defend your project so boldly ;-) .
i think
for this small, yet crucial group of people the "lure of money" is not
such a threat. they want their product to work and used in the first place
- thats what gives them more satisfaction than a couple of euro on a bank
account.
Absolutely. And that is perfectly my point :-) .
Money doesn't create
independence but dependence. My employer does not pay me for being
independent of him and some vodes.net would not do either. In the
contrary: Money is paid *because* I do useful things for my employer.
i agree. money is used/spent on a task in order to achieve a certain goal
of the institution. but i dont see why there cant be an overlap between
the "selbstentfaltung" of the individual and of the institution.
Of course there can be such an overlap. When people choose their
profession there is some of this Selbstentfaltung involved for
instance. And of course - though rare - people can be convinced of
their payed job.
The point is, however, that the logic of money is fundamentally
incompatible with the logic of Selbstentfaltung. Let me take your
project as an example. If I understand it right at the moment you are
not able to raise money by your intended core business process so to
say. Instead you are moving to fields which are more or less unrelated
to your core business. That alone is a nice example of what money can
do to a project: The goal of the project is shifted to a completely
different field. Instead of furthering the creation of useful
artifacts - like music - you are busy generating money by unrelated
activity.
That is exactly how money works. Money is the perfect abstraction from
any goals based on Selbstentfaltung. Money follows it's own logic. It
is completely irrelevant whether you organize parties or sell drugs.
And this is the poison called alienation. I'm convinced this poison of
alienation is structurally built into any concept of money - or to be
complete: abstract exchange - and this poison can not be reversed. The
best you can try to is to have some antidotes against that poison but
in a society based on money I don't think it is possible to become
immune.
look what
google (as a for-profit-company) does: until recently they gave developers
some 20% of their time to work on projects they like. they seem to
somewhat reverse that strategy now, though, given the tons of services
they have. nevertheless, i kinda like this "throw out a couple of services
and see whats popular" approach. i think its very pragmatic and highly
efficient. in terms of costs to google and the actual time investment that
is done by the developers. im sure, at the end of the day, google gets
many more work hours done (for them) offsetting the 20% salary costs.
Google is an absolutely atypical example. Google made a fortune by
going to the stock markets. They also managed to become one of the
biggest players in this whole Internet business. They have money to
burn and may be it is even a useful business model to adopt some of
the Selbstentfaltung. However, the logic of money is inalienable and
even Google has to follow that logic sooner or later.
so if your main critisim against the "structured force" of money rests on
full time payment/dependence on the one end, and on "inefficiency/waste of
resources/too much beaurocracy" on the other, but vn is in the middle, i
dont see a justified critisim (in relation to vn that is). im going to add
this to the VN_CRIT paper. feel free to convince me otherwise.
No full time jobs are probably one of the more useful antidotes
against the poison of alienation.
For instance your vodes.net
and all its complicated procedures and instiutions are just there to
distribute money. Why when the money is really not needed?
[...]
second, i think the procedures look complicated at first but i really dont
think they actually are. unfortunatly, i cant very well explain the whole
thing in an easy manner. to a large extent, i blame the "deutsche
gruendlichkeit" (dg) that i "suffer" (exaggerated) from for this failure
to explain the whole thing in a reasonable, simple, easy to grasp manner.
while dg is certainly benefitial for the creation, in my case its a
terrible thing to have when it comes to promotion/communication with
outsiders.
Once more I can fully understand what you are talking about ;-) .
There are some people out there which blame me to be also a victim of
this "deutsche Gründlichkeit" ;-) .
Mit Freien Grüßen
Stefan
--
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