Re: [ox-en] Kula and other comments from Gregers
- From: Michael Bauwens <michelsub2003 yahoo.com>
- Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 06:17:39 -0800 (PST)
Dmytri,
I admit it is a real masterpiece you have produced here, and I had a really good time reading it.
I'm just hoping that the exchange can focus on each other's arguments from now on (specification: I'm not blaming anybody in particular)
Michel
The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer alternatives.
Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net; Blog, at http://blog.p2pfoundation.net; Newsletter, at http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p
Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499; interview at http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html; video interview, at http://www.masternewmedia.org/news/2006/09/29/network_collaboration_peer_to_peer.htm
----- Original Message ----
From: Dmytri Kleiner <dk telekommunisten.net>
To: list-en oekonux.org
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 4:57:54 PM
Subject: Re: [ox-en] Kula and other comments from Gregers
On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 09:22:24 +0100, Gregers Petersen
wrote:
I make a note on the official mailing-list, mentioning that using the
"object" Kula in the way it is done in your patch doesn't compile.
Gregers, you have not sent a patch, you have perhaps issued a
poorly
worded
bug report.
Despite your pretentious you seem to not be able to follow
the
discussion,
here is what actually happened, as you can verify for yourself in the
archives.
You responded to two claims of mine, one that potlach is an example
of a form of non-monetary exchange that was still prone to expansion
and two that money originates in the tribute and prestige exchange,
I list Kula as an example of a prestige item that is also money.
You claim potlach was not production expanding and claim some amorphous
group of
uncited anthropologist has has proven that Kula is not money.
I try to get you to elaborate your point, in doing so you ask me some
questions, which
I answer as best I can.
You ask why I think potlach is expansive, I indicate that as far as
I
know,
returning more that what was recieved as a matter of prestige for the
chief.
Beyond explaining that potlach turned "obscene," you ignore
the
question
any
further trying to establish the burning question of how many books
I
have
read.
You ask why I think Kula is money, I say because it is employed by
big men in ritualized exchange, you ask what is a big man, I say a
form of chief or sub chief, you ask what is a chief, I say a
chiefdom is transitional stage between kin-communal and state-based
society.
You keep asking questions, and not providing any answers or
even
analysis.
All the while in answering your questions I hope you will actually make
some sort
coherent argument that helps me to understand your claims, you do
not,
you
do not even
explain whether my answers are correct or not, instead you only
claim
that
anthropologists "know shit" and that I should head to
library
immediately
to start
reading every book you list (without citing) and that unless I
have
studied
Anthopology I should just shut up about it.
The very odd thing is that you never ask me for an explanation
about
what
Kula is all about?
Oh please, are you even reading this discussion?
What did I mean when I wrote:
Kula, IIRC, was used a component of prestige exchange, which "big
men"
used as part of ritualized circulation. Please explain what
you
think
I should know that goes beyond this and how this knowledge would
change
my understanding of the origins of money.
You on the other hand, just 'flame around' and deny that you need to
read and understand the manual,
This is completely delusionalon your part, you are the one who is
continuously
trying to talk about rank, qualifications, etc.
I have not been "flaming around," this is yet another attempt of
yours
to
make
me, my character and my qualifications the subject instead
of
addressing
the point.
Making accusations and trying to intimidate people will just get you
banned.
Are you talking to yourself? I am not trying to intimidate anyone.
You make a very particular mistake in your last sentence (above). You
suddently use the plural tense ('our') - using 'third
person'
requires
both that you know who you are speaking for and that these people
acknowledge that you have the right to speak on their behalf.
You have descended into complete gibberish.
claiming to be a "Big Man" does not make one a "Big Man".
I have not claimed anything, you are the one who's entire
contribution
has
been
geared at establishing your "superior" rank and qualifications.
This ends this discussion.
What discussion?
Lunch With Gregers, Act I:
SCENE: a small cafe, Gregors is sitting at a table, he is approached
by
a
waiter.
WAITER: Can I help you sir?
GREGERS: Do you have anything vegetarian for a hungry ANTHROPOLOGIST?
WAITER: Oh, you're a vegetarian, me to, I look after my health,
the
veggie
burger is pretty good here!
GREGERS: Waiter, I am compelled by your suggestion of the
veggie
burger,
but at a secret meeting
of brilliant ANTHROPOLOGISTS, it was determined that a vegetarian
diet
is
not always healthy, what are you talking about?
WAITER: Well, you know, we have the teeth and intestines of
a
herbivore,
not a carnivore, so we are better suited to eat vegetables.
GREGERS: Waiter, your suggestion of the veggie burger is
being
undermined
by your allusions to biological deterministic claims, please
tell this ANTHROPOLOGIST where you get your information from!
WAITER: Not sure, actually, I remember this poster at Indian Veg
in
Chapel
Market, is that wrong?
GREGERS: Waiter, are you doubting the knowledge of ANTHROPOLOGISTS?!
WAITER: No sir, I'm quite interested, is it wrong that vegetables are
healthier?
GREGERS: Waiter, go to the library at once! Read "From Grains
to
Grissel,
Dietary Evolution in Neolithic Andorra" written by a
GREAT
ANTHROPOLOGIST!
WAITER: Umm, ok Sir, so... are you having the veggie burger?
GREGERS: Are you insulting me?! You ADMIT that your knowledge is based
exclusively on a poster you once saw at Indian Veg in Chapel Market
and
you
expect me, an ANTHROPOLOGIST, to accept your suggestion of a veggie
burger?! You should be fired and banished for such insolence!
WAITER: Umm, your order Sir?
GREGERS: I'll have the corned beef at once!
--
Dmytri Kleiner
editing text files since 1981
http://www.telekommunisten.net
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