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Re: [ox-en] The refutation of illusional refutations



Sorry Dmytri, but it is at times difficult to discuss with you.

Claiming that you have refuted my arguments does not make it so, you have stated your opinion, shown that you could not understand mine and others arguments about it. Each time you say that you have refuted my arguments, I'm not going to do like a child and say 'not so', as that would be tiresome. You have not refuted any of the empirical evidence that exists for non-reciprocal peer production, and offered no arguments to prove that free software is market economy, a command and control economy, or a gift economy. You have simple pointed out that it has a material basis, which everybody here knows and is not rocket science.

So, after a contribution like this, I'm very much inclined to say, I'm not interested in having any discussions at all with you. Strange, it is the first time in my life I would take a decision like that ... which in my mind means that I have rarely encountered so obtuse a character.

Let me and others be the judge if you have refuted any arguments, and not yourself. Doing that means that you are living in your own sollipsic world, not in the world of mutual discourse.

Michel
 
The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer alternatives. 
Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net; Blog, at http://blog.p2pfoundation.net; Newsletter, at http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p 
 
Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499; interview at  http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html; video interview, at http://www.masternewmedia.org/news/2006/09/29/network_collaboration_peer_to_peer.htm

----- Original Message ----
From: Dmytri Kleiner <dk telekommunisten.net>
To: list-en oekonux.org
Sent: Friday, February 1, 2008 10:01:56 PM
Subject: Re: [ox-en] The Ideology of Free Culture and the Grammar of Sabotage

On

Tue,

29

Jan

2008

01:45:49

-0800

(PST),

Michael

Bauwens


wrote:



and

Dmytri,

there

is

really

no

need

to

psychologize

arguments,

like
"being


defensive",

I

can't

speak

for

Graham,

but

it

does

certainly

not
correspond


to

my

feeling

and

intention.

Sorry,

but

when

you

renounced

Matteo's

endorsement

of

Copyfarleft

because
it

was

"unproven,"

that

struck

me

as

defensive.

Why

should

an

essayist
limit

themselves

to

the

"proven"?

Matteo

is

writing

theoretical

articles,
not

dictating

State

policy.

It

implies

that

other

currents

in

peer

production

discussions

are

based
on

things

that

are

"proven,"

i.e.

your

contentions

that

a

"immaterial,
non-reciprocal"

mode

of

production

exists

because

free 

software

exists,
and

I

feel

I

have

completely

refuted

these

arguments,

thus

your

reaction
to

Matteo's

endorsements

of

these

and

similar

ideas

as

defensive,

gripping
to

interpretations

that

are

important

to

you,

that

these

arguments
challenge.

It

seems

to

me

like

you

do

understand

that

an

"immaterial,
non-reciprocal"

mode

of

production

has

not,

does

not,

and

can

not
exist

and

are

having

trouble

synthesizing

this

knowledge

with

your
world

view,

thus

you

are

inclined

to

react

defensively

to

this

loss,
as

you

go

through

the

stages

of

grieving

for

this

idea

that

was

obviously
important

to

you.

Sorry

about

the

psychologizing,

I

fully

understand

I

could

be

comepletely
wrong
and

off

base,

but

that's

how

I

took

it.

I

further

want

to

re-iterate

that

I

very

much

appreciate

your

work

and

our
interactions,

that

is

why

I

throw

myself

into

our

discussions.

[...]




By

contrast,

the

oekonux

community,

far

from

ignoring

the

class

struggle,


is

co-constructing

an

understanding

of

the

most

important

social
processes


of

the

day,

and

each

in

our

own

way,

are

collaborating

on

the
construction


of

the

new

world,

by

actively

creating

and

supporting

various

open

and
free


initiatives,

something

altogether

different

than

merely

sabotaging.

Sure,

"the

community"

is

diverse,

however

much

of

the

discussion

here

tends
to

neglect

the

dialectic

process

of

change

and

the

struggle

and

politics
that
must

be

addressed

if

change

to

be

realized.




I

try

to

be

positive

in

most

of

my

dialogues,

but

I

can

entirely


understand

that

Graham

is

fed

up

with

the

nihilism

that

is

exhibited

in


some

quarters,

it

leads

nowhere,

and

in

fact,

it

is

there

that

the


'whining'

is

located,

if

anywhere,

Then

you

can

likely

understand

how

many

of

us

are

fed

up

with

the
unpresprictive,

uncritical

mumbo

jumbo,

and

the

deficient

application
of

political

economy

that

is

characteristic

of

this

community.

People

like

Graham

are

generally

too

busy

striking

a

dismissive

pose
in

the

mirror

to

worry

about

why

there

is

so

little

overlap

between
this

community

and

the

artist

and

activist

communities,

which

always
and

everywhere

are

the

historic

engine

of

progressive

change

and
resistance.

It

is

in

these

communities

that

I

meet

people

like

Matteo,

Toni

Prug,
Joanne

Richardson,

Fran

Illich

and

many

others

who

Graham

would

likely
chose

to

be

"abusive"

to

in

a

flurry

of

implied,

ill-defined

ideas

and
name

dropping.


--
DE

[PHONE NUMBER REMOVED]

163

286

6163
UK

[PHONE NUMBER REMOVED]

794

244

4444
--
Quirk



OurNewsGroup.org:

The

Wiki

for

Usenet

http://www.ournewsgroup.org/Quirk

http://www.dialstation.com
-

international

calling

from

your

mobile

phone.
-

no

special

software

to

use,

just

your

phone.
-

first

call

free,

no

sign

up,

just

call!
-- 
Dmytri

Kleiner
editing

text

files

since

1981

http://www.telekommunisten.net


_________________________________
Web-Site:

http://www.oekonux.org/
Organization:

http://www.oekonux.de/projekt/
Contact:

projekt oekonux.de






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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_________________________________
Web-Site: http://www.oekonux.org/
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Contact: projekt oekonux.de



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