Re: [ox-en] The refutation of illusional refutations
- From: Michael Bauwens <michelsub2003 yahoo.com>
- Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 03:16:02 -0800 (PST)
Sorry Dmytri, but it is at times difficult to discuss with you.
Claiming that you have refuted my arguments does not make it so, you have stated your opinion, shown that you could not understand mine and others arguments about it. Each time you say that you have refuted my arguments, I'm not going to do like a child and say 'not so', as that would be tiresome. You have not refuted any of the empirical evidence that exists for non-reciprocal peer production, and offered no arguments to prove that free software is market economy, a command and control economy, or a gift economy. You have simple pointed out that it has a material basis, which everybody here knows and is not rocket science.
So, after a contribution like this, I'm very much inclined to say, I'm not interested in having any discussions at all with you. Strange, it is the first time in my life I would take a decision like that ... which in my mind means that I have rarely encountered so obtuse a character.
Let me and others be the judge if you have refuted any arguments, and not yourself. Doing that means that you are living in your own sollipsic world, not in the world of mutual discourse.
Michel
The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer alternatives.
Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net; Blog, at http://blog.p2pfoundation.net; Newsletter, at http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p
Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499; interview at http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html; video interview, at http://www.masternewmedia.org/news/2006/09/29/network_collaboration_peer_to_peer.htm
----- Original Message ----
From: Dmytri Kleiner <dk telekommunisten.net>
To: list-en oekonux.org
Sent: Friday, February 1, 2008 10:01:56 PM
Subject: Re: [ox-en] The Ideology of Free Culture and the Grammar of Sabotage
On
Tue,
29
Jan
2008
01:45:49
-0800
(PST),
Michael
Bauwens
wrote:
and
Dmytri,
there
is
really
no
need
to
psychologize
arguments,
like
"being
defensive",
I
can't
speak
for
Graham,
but
it
does
certainly
not
correspond
to
my
feeling
and
intention.
Sorry,
but
when
you
renounced
Matteo's
endorsement
of
Copyfarleft
because
it
was
"unproven,"
that
struck
me
as
defensive.
Why
should
an
essayist
limit
themselves
to
the
"proven"?
Matteo
is
writing
theoretical
articles,
not
dictating
State
policy.
It
implies
that
other
currents
in
peer
production
discussions
are
based
on
things
that
are
"proven,"
i.e.
your
contentions
that
a
"immaterial,
non-reciprocal"
mode
of
production
exists
because
free
software
exists,
and
I
feel
I
have
completely
refuted
these
arguments,
thus
your
reaction
to
Matteo's
endorsements
of
these
and
similar
ideas
as
defensive,
gripping
to
interpretations
that
are
important
to
you,
that
these
arguments
challenge.
It
seems
to
me
like
you
do
understand
that
an
"immaterial,
non-reciprocal"
mode
of
production
has
not,
does
not,
and
can
not
exist
and
are
having
trouble
synthesizing
this
knowledge
with
your
world
view,
thus
you
are
inclined
to
react
defensively
to
this
loss,
as
you
go
through
the
stages
of
grieving
for
this
idea
that
was
obviously
important
to
you.
Sorry
about
the
psychologizing,
I
fully
understand
I
could
be
comepletely
wrong
and
off
base,
but
that's
how
I
took
it.
I
further
want
to
re-iterate
that
I
very
much
appreciate
your
work
and
our
interactions,
that
is
why
I
throw
myself
into
our
discussions.
[...]
By
contrast,
the
oekonux
community,
far
from
ignoring
the
class
struggle,
is
co-constructing
an
understanding
of
the
most
important
social
processes
of
the
day,
and
each
in
our
own
way,
are
collaborating
on
the
construction
of
the
new
world,
by
actively
creating
and
supporting
various
open
and
free
initiatives,
something
altogether
different
than
merely
sabotaging.
Sure,
"the
community"
is
diverse,
however
much
of
the
discussion
here
tends
to
neglect
the
dialectic
process
of
change
and
the
struggle
and
politics
that
must
be
addressed
if
change
to
be
realized.
I
try
to
be
positive
in
most
of
my
dialogues,
but
I
can
entirely
understand
that
Graham
is
fed
up
with
the
nihilism
that
is
exhibited
in
some
quarters,
it
leads
nowhere,
and
in
fact,
it
is
there
that
the
'whining'
is
located,
if
anywhere,
Then
you
can
likely
understand
how
many
of
us
are
fed
up
with
the
unpresprictive,
uncritical
mumbo
jumbo,
and
the
deficient
application
of
political
economy
that
is
characteristic
of
this
community.
People
like
Graham
are
generally
too
busy
striking
a
dismissive
pose
in
the
mirror
to
worry
about
why
there
is
so
little
overlap
between
this
community
and
the
artist
and
activist
communities,
which
always
and
everywhere
are
the
historic
engine
of
progressive
change
and
resistance.
It
is
in
these
communities
that
I
meet
people
like
Matteo,
Toni
Prug,
Joanne
Richardson,
Fran
Illich
and
many
others
who
Graham
would
likely
chose
to
be
"abusive"
to
in
a
flurry
of
implied,
ill-defined
ideas
and
name
dropping.
--
DE
[PHONE NUMBER REMOVED]
163
286
6163
UK
[PHONE NUMBER REMOVED]
794
244
4444
--
Quirk
OurNewsGroup.org:
The
Wiki
for
Usenet
http://www.ournewsgroup.org/Quirk
http://www.dialstation.com
-
international
calling
from
your
mobile
phone.
-
no
special
software
to
use,
just
your
phone.
-
first
call
free,
no
sign
up,
just
call!
--
Dmytri
Kleiner
editing
text
files
since
1981
http://www.telekommunisten.net
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