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Re: Money as a dominant social relation (was: Re: [ox-en] There is no such thing like "peer money")



[Converted from multipart/alternative]

[1 text/plain]
On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 11:40 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose gmail.com> wrote:

[Converted from multipart/alternative]


The examples that I put forth, of neolithic era early civilizations like
ancient egypt, Catal Huyuk, and others are not hunter-gatherer cultures,
and
definitely not gift economies. Archaeologists have found ample evidence of
marketplaces, barter and trade. Similar with the the Hopewell mound
villages
of North America.


I'd be interested in such references; you are definitely talking about
post-tribal type of societies ...







I also think you are wrong about 'simple barter technology'. I think that
most historians/anthropologist now say that barter was exceptional, that
tribal economies were based on gift, not barter, and that the kind of
money
we are using now is not derived from barter.


We can go round and round on this, but I can prove to you that the modern
currency systems that we use are in part derived in model and practice from
earlier barter-based systems. They are in fact in part designed to control
barter-based systems. There would be no need for this control if there was
not already an existing local barter currency systems to control in the
first place :-)


how would you prove this? historically I presume? again, I'd appreciate any
references to read up



Peer currency ("money") economies are now emerging in response to the
problems with state money and economies (the kind of money we use now).
Peer
"money" is basically a technological/creative/psycho-social statement that
the technology of money itself is useful (for barter, for representing
value, etc) but that the rules of state money do not resonate with the
world
view of peoples creating peer "money". This world view is also the reason
why peer "money" is not guaranteed to devolve back into state money.


but only a minority of people hold such a view right now, no?






This whole time, so far as I can recall, I have been talking about these
ancient towns where people used some form of token as barter. I do not see
barter as gift economy.



I'm a little confused as how you use barter, which for me means, exchanging
things for things, without tokens; and exchange is when you start using
tokens/money





That is not what I am arguing above. I am arguing that money (as a barter
technology) could a part of a system of coercion, control, whatever you
want
to call it. But that it could also be a part of a system of sustainable
mutual governance.


ok, I get that, and I agree, though I wouldn't use money to do barter, but
for exchange




That is the point I have been trying to interject. Maybe I misunderstood
what others were saying here, but it seemed to me that some people were
arguing that basically all money is bad, and that peer economies don't have
money, and that we need to do away with money to make real progress.


I'm not sure that everybody is arguing in that sense; what I get from Paul
is that the type of money we are using now, is derived from class society
and state power, and not a 'natural' extension of barter and early markets.
I recall similar historical work that shows that capitalism, merchant
capitalism and its 'world' market, did not derive from existing local and
regional markets; but also derived from state-sanctioned and supported
practices (Braudel, Polanyi);





  If you would like
references to the work I am referring to from University of Michigan,
Egytologists, and others, I can get these for you.


always interested in references




T

I think that now, world-views are emerging on a larger scale that are more
accepting of the notion of money systems created and maintained as a
commons
by civil society. I have been saying that people are becoming more and and
more ready to start seeing different things as a "commons" (using the
Charlotte Hess, Elinor Ostrum definition of commons) for about 2 years now.


I agree and it is precisely this sort of cultural mindset change that I'm
tracking as well




Peer currencies are commons-based currencies. transparent, mutually
co-governed, and afford participation to anyone who is solving probles in
an
individual or groups centric way that acknolwedges/understands the
"commons"
that the money represents. It is a "commons" derived currency.


From Thomas Greco, conditions for successfull social money:

Our recommendations for creating sound, equitable, and sustainable community
exchange systems and currencies include the following:

*Transparency and accountability* to the users is paramount. Any currency or
exchange operation should be completely open and above-board and accountable
to the users. In order to make an assessment of the value of a currency, the
users must have adequate and timely information about the basis upon which
it is issued and the amount in circulation relative to its backing or
foundation.

*Assurance of reciprocity* is essential to the long term viability of any
exchange system. This may be achieved through a variety of means. Most
importantly, those to whom currency or credit is allocated, i.e., those who
are empowered to issue currency by spending, should clearly understand their
responsibilities, and there should be some means of assuring their
compliance with their agreement. That could be based on collateral and legal
enforcement, but it need not be. It can also be based upon mutual
responsibility and peer pressure within sub-groups.

*Network of Trust.* Every exchange system is built upon trust. That trust
may be based upon a variety of foundations. In an exchange circle or
currency system based on mutual credit, there must be, at minimum, some
means of verifying the identity of each participant and limiting the amount
of credit they may emit. Beyond that, it is desirable that participants be
able to rate each others performance and that such information be readily
available to all.

The detailed specifications of each exchange alternative exchange system
must be tailored to the cultural and legal environments within which it
operates, as well as the available technological infrastructure, but an
ideal Mutual Credit system should conform to the following criteria:

   1. Currency or credits are issued interest-free.
   2. Currency or credits are issued into circulation upon the sale of
   products and services and their acceptance by the seller.
   3. Each participant is committed to reciprocate by accepting the currency
   or credits when s/he makes a sale.
   4. Credit limits are set by participants democratically and easily.
   5. Transparent accounting available on demand on the Web.
   6. The addition of ALL outstanding balances is always equal to ZERO.

Whatever one might consider to be the ideal configuration, we think there is
a need for some intermediate steps to be taken by business associations,
municipalities, and regional governments, steps that will begin to liberate
local and regional economies from unhealthy dependencies and destructive
aspects of the global financial regime."







Michel






On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 2:59 AM, Paul Cockshott <wpc dcs.gla.ac.uk>
wrote:

[1  <text/plain; iso-8859-1 (quoted-printable)>]
The point is that money is a social power, the power as Adam Smith
put
it
to
command the labour of others. As such this power of command derives
from
the
sovereign -- either the actual monarch in the case of a country like
Britain,
or from the Republic in the case of the Dollar. The power is
delegated
to
who ever holds the money, in a way similar to the way the power of
the
sovereign
was delegated to dukes and barons under feudalism. Bill Gates, is in
this
sense a modern prince.

What you are talking about is a system of barter, which, would lack
the
generality
of money, and lack also its coercive power.

Paul Cockshott
Dept of Computing Science
University of Glasgow
+44 141 330 1629
www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~wpc/reports/<http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/%7Ewpc/reports/>
<http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/%7Ewpc/reports/>
<http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/%7Ewpc/reports/><
http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/%7Ewpc/reports/>



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-list-en oekonux.org on behalf of Samuel Rose
Sent: Mon 7/14/2008 9:31 PM
To: list-en oekonux.org
Subject: Re: Money as a dominant social relation (was: Re: [ox-en]
There
is
no such thing like "peer money")

[Converted from multipart/alternative]

[1 text/plain]
In the case of what we are talking about in the orginal subject of
the
email
("peer money" ) I am talking about anything that is recognized by
other
people as a subsitute for value of physical items, whether issued by
a
state
or not.

In fact, your example of a definition of "money" as being something
that
must orignate with a state cofirms that there is such a thing as
"peer
money", which I would call money that does not orginate with a
self-declared
state.

The shells of Catal Huyuk are very similar in this regard to the peer
currncy of today. Is it "money"? To me this definition of "state
money"
really, really doesn't matter and the only distinction worth not to
me
is
state vs. non-state currency.

On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 3:23 PM, Paul Cockshott <wpc dcs.gla.ac.uk>
wrote:

[1  <text/plain; iso-8859-1 (quoted-printable)>]

Depends what you mean by money.

If you mean coinage or banknotes and all that follows, these have a
clear
origin with Lydia in the west in the 8th C bc and with the spade
and
hoe
tokens
issued by the chinese empire.

The origin of money is closely linked with state finance. It is a
myth
that
it originates with barter.

Inghams book 'The Nature of Money' gives a good account, see also
the
work
of the economist Randall Wray.
A summary is in

http://pavlina-tcherneva.net/papers/Arestis-Sawyer-Chapter%2005.pdf
Paul Cockshott
Dept of Computing Science
University of Glasgow
+44 141 330 1629
www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~wpc/reports/<http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/%7Ewpc/reports/>
<http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/%7Ewpc/reports/>
<http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/%7Ewpc/reports/>
<http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/%7Ewpc/reports/><
http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/%7Ewpc/reports/>



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-list-en oekonux.org on behalf of Samuel Rose
Sent: Sun 7/13/2008 5:56 PM
To: list-en oekonux.org
Subject: Re: Money as a dominant social relation (was: Re: [ox-en]
There
is
no such thing like "peer money")

[Converted from multipart/alternative]

[1 text/plain]
Christian,

While I agree with your point, I probably should clarify mine to
state
that
where human civilization has emerged, money of some form has quite
often
if
not usually emerged. Some colleagues of mine that are
Archaeologists
argue
that "human civilization" (ie humans living in towns with markets
etc)
goes
back as far as 10,000 years. This includes recent work that a
friend
has
done on the very earliest known Egyptian civilizations, plus work
on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%87atalh%C3%B6y%C3%BCk where
things
like
obsidian and shells were used for trade tokens, etc.

it's a technology of convenience. I do agree with you that it
hasn't
emerged
universally (until recent times).

I agree that it wasn't really dominant until 300-500 years ago,
this
is
when
in the West the paradigm of people "expressing self for
materialistic
gain"
(rf Clare W Graves) really started to emerge on a wide scale.

So, the point that people once used money in ways that did not
over-extend
the medium of money proves the point that money is not always
inherently
in
and of itself, but that it is the assumptions people have about
money,
and
their shared understanding of how it is best used that is the
problem.

Once again, I will re-suggest that for p2p systems, that money can
be
pushed
out to the periphery of systems (which is basically what is already
happening).

I do agree that humans could theoretically live without money. But,
I
also
contend that it is unlikely that humans will do so in our lifetimes
(as
I
stated previously).

On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 6:28 AM, Christian Siefkes <
christian siefkes.net>
wrote:

Samuel Rose wrote:
Money has been around for at least ten thousand years or more
among
humans.
Money has naturally emerged among almost every culture that
ever
existed.

When we talk about money, we should remember that money as a
_dominant
social relation_ is a fairly new phenomenon. In most cultures,
money
did
not
play a very important role, since most economy relations where
based
on
direct dependency (slaves producing for their master, serfs
producing
for
their feudal lord etc.) and/or on direct, money-less cooperation
in
small
groups (subsistence production in tribes, farmer families, or
serf
families--except for the parts that went to the lord and the
church).

Most production took place for direct consumption by the
producers
community
(subsistence) and/or their masters (direct dependency). Possibly
surplusses
(not needed for other purposes) were exchanged, but production
_for
exchange_ was rare and existed mainly "at the fringes of
society",
as
Marx
puts it.

Money only became a dominant social relation when production _for
exchange_,
production with the explicit purpose of getting money, became the
norm
rather than an exception. That happened only about 500-300 years
ago,
with
the emergence of capitalism.

Sadly, I don't know of any good English-language references to
these
developments--if anybody can fill them in, I would be grateful.
(Maybe
Raoul
Victor, who has studied so closely the transition from feudalism
to
capitalism?)

Also, I believe that there have been many cultures who didn't
know
money
at
all, though they might have used different systems that might
seem
similar
to, but cannot be considered money since they served a different
purpose,
such as the Kula system [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kula_ring
].
(Wikipedia
writes: "The Kula exchange system can be viewed as reinforcing
status
and
authority distinctions".) That Kula cannot be considered money
has
been
pointed out before by Gregers Petersen, if I remember correctly.

So, let's not be rash about the role of money. Electricity has
been
with
us
for millions of years (think of lightning), but the use of
electricity
as
a
major source of energy is rather new.

Best regards
       Christian

--
|-------- Dr. Christian Siefkes ---------
christian siefkes.net---------
|   Homepage: http://www.siefkes.net/   |   Blog:
http://www.keimform.de/
|      Peer Production in the Physical World:
http://peerconomy.org/
|------------------------------------------ OpenPGP Key ID:
0x346452D8
--
Any sufficiently advanced bug is indistinguishable from a
feature.
       -- Rich Kulawiec




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Social Synergy
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--
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Social Synergy
Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
AIM: Str9960
Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
skype: samuelrose
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http://socialsynergyweb.com/services


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--
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Social Synergy
Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
AIM: Str9960
Linkedin Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samrose
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-- 
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Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net; Blog, at
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http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p

Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499; interview at
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BEST VIDEO ON P2P:
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