Message 05180 [Homepage] [Navigation]
Thread: oxenT05101 Message: 14/14 L3 [In index]
[First in Thread] [Last in Thread] [Date Next] [Date Prev]
[Next in Thread] [Prev in Thread] [Next Thread] [Prev Thread]

Re: [ox-en] There IS such a thing as peer money



[Converted from multipart/alternative]
[1 text/plain]yes, it's a hybrid system because 1) it's a bridge to the future from thepresent and 2) there is no concept of "energy flow" in current P2P theorieswhich means that energy (as currency or as electricity) can flow out of somepeer or node (e.g. an electric energy generator) but not flow back in (e.g.in terms of investment in maintenance of that generator) leading to theeventual death of that node or peer. It's a generalized tit for tat, orgeneralized exchange, not a direct reciprocal one!
So like BitTorrent the reciprocation between two peers during is done in thecontext of supporting a generalized exchange (or inflow/outflow) of energyand that's because the currency as energy can be converted to any form ofenergy that ultimately finds its way back to the producer of the energy(e.g. someone who put 10M joules into producing some product XYZ will getthat energy back not from the person who buys the product but from theperson who makes the food and/or from the person who provides entertainmentthat makes life lievable for the producer of XYZ and/or from whateverproducer of goods and services that makes the continued sustainableproduction of XYZ possible!)
(note to self: I need to clarify that since the way it may be misconstruednow is as a direct tit for tat exchange between two people and that missesthe point about the generalized exchange of energy that happens in themodel..)
Does that help?

On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 9:26 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 gmail.com>wrote:
[Converted from multipart/alternative]>> [1 text/plain]> concerning p2p in the p2p social currency model>> - to the degree that individuals can freely generate and give energy, and> take the energy that they need, then this system is p2p as defined by our> p2p theory>> - to the degree that this grid is run by measured exchange, it's a market> system, that is distributed (and in that sense 'p2p', but not in our full> sense) instead of centralized>> so if it is the latter, what's p2p about it, it the distributed nature of> the organization, but nothing else>> of course, it is a legitimate effort to seek an alternative market> mechanism> that internalizes the cost of energy expenditure and that precludes> over-use> of natural resources>>> Michel>> On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 10:24 PM, Stefan Merten <smerten oekonux.de> wrote:>> > Hi Marc!> >> > > [Converted from multipart/alternative]> >> > BTW: It seems to me that the newlines in your post get lost somehow.> > May be this is a bug in the converter used to sanitize> > multipart/alternative mails for the list. In general it's better to> > send plain text only mails here.> >> > 2 weeks (20 days) ago marc fawzi wrote:> > > Here is the latest draft of the P2P Currency model I've been working> on:> > > http://p2pfoundation.net/P2P_Social_Currency_Model> >> > Thanks for structuring this so clearly. It made it easy for me to scan> > a few important things.> >> > > Premise> > >> > > Money is one of the fundamental elements of today's society.> >> > Yes. In fact it structures today's societies more than anything else.> >> > > Changing what money is and how it works will fundamentally change> > society.> >> > Yes. But since money *as such* structures society change only takes> > place when money becomes irrelevant.> >> > > Motivation> > [...]> > > Prior to the collapse, very few people questioned the design of the> > economy.> >> > I was among them ;-) . In fact that collapse has not only been> > foreseen since the 1990's by some thinkers but even explained why it> > ultimately had to happen. *And* why there is no chance to remedy the> > reasons for this [1]_. However, I guess most of this material is only> > available in German.> >> > .. [1] In fact I find it striking how contemporary "analysises" of> >       this crash just scratch at the surface. So far I heard nobody> >       who were able to really explain what happened recently. In fact> >       greed and the things usually used as an "explanation" existed> >       throughout capitalism (and before) and thus they are hardly an> >       explanation for what happened.> >> >       The real explanation is of course that the valorization of> >       labor works worse and worse. That is why the financial system> >       became more and more important. And in fact there is no reason> >       to assume that this can be remedied somehow without giving up> >       capitalism.> >> > > Model's Context> > [...]> > > The P2P *Energy* Economy adds the requirement that individual peers> > > must be able to generate their own energy as well as be able to sell> > > their excess energy to other peers, using a distributed electric> > > grid (reference: P2P Energy Production.)> >> > Ah, then I understand why you put the label "P2P" on your model.> > However, I can not see why in a peer production based society everyone> > must be able to generate his/her own energy not talking of the> > possibility of *selling* excess energy.> >> > Unfortunately you didn't give a source so I don't know who made the> > point.> >> > Is there another reason why you use the label "P2P"? I'm asking> > because I worry that the term P2P becomes meaningless if it is put on> > everything.> >> > > Model's Axioms> > >> > > Axioms> > >> > > The following are non-universal axioms (i.e. starting truths for this> > model)> > >> > > 1. Money, as defined here, is a tokenizer of energy and information,> > >    and as such it carries both energy and information in every token.> >> > I can't see this is a money definition which makes sense. Money is> > foremost a social relationship and in your definition there is no> > sociality included. In particular human efforts are missing.> >> > > 2. Money, as defined here, does not grow in value on its own, i.e.> > >    cannot derive value from itself over time, i.e. 'interest' is not> > >    possible.> >> > No money I know of does this. If that would be the case for the money> > in my pocket then I'd kindly ask you for the recipe ;-) .> >> > However,> >> > * the use of money by buying and applying> >> >  * means of production and> >> >  * (abstract) labor power and> >> > * selling the resulting products> >> > results in surplus value. Interest is only a derived form of surplus> > value.> >> > Also you are putting lots of today's left-wing Western moral in your> > axioms. This makes it hard for other people to accept and therefore> > this seems to me a reason your why model is doomed to fail.> >> > Apart from that: If you replace (renewable) energy by standard labor /> > money then I'd say your axioms are simply given in today's societies.> > Then the question comes up why your model should be any better.> >> > > Iff money, not just peer money, can be derived and used more> > > intelligently, then there is nothing in my (and other people's)> > > operative reality against its existence.> >> > Hah! I respond with an axiom:> >> > * Money systems have the inherent tendency to become the "invisible> >  hand" meaning they follow their own logic. Therefore they can not be> >  "used more intelligently".> >> > Just kidding. Of course this is not an axiom but the result of an> > analysis of a money based system namely capitalism. In fact there are> > hardly any axioms in social sciences (though there are also very few> > in mathematics).> >> > 2 weeks (20 days) ago marc fawzi wrote:> > > Patrick,> > >> > > Thanks for your feedback.> >> > I think Patrick's observations are very good and he really put the> > finger on your weak spot. Your reply shows that in fact your model has> > exactly the same problems as capitalism.> >> > > Re: #1, Abundance comes from the whole (from all peers producing> energy)> > not> > > from ONE peer or ONE group of peers producing so much more energy than> > > everyone else, i.e. dumping energy into the market for the purpose of> > > driving down prices and killing off competition.> >> > Indeed it would be *great* if a single peer would be able and willing> > to supply all the energy needed on earth. Nobody else would need to> > care anymore. I for one am glad that the Linux kernel developers care> > for the kernel the best they can. A single energy provider would be a> > very concrete use value and indeed something I'd strive for.> >> > It is your system that demands that what would be the best thing in> > concrete terms must not happen for the sake of the system. This is> > because your system builds an abstraction - called money - which> > immediately starts a life on its own preventing useful things to> > happen.> >> > If you look carefully it is exactly this own life of the abstraction> > you are complaining about for capitalism:> >> > > We have just watched our monetary system take a dive from the 110th> > > floor (see: global economic meltdown 2008)> >> > In your observation you are right to assume that this was not the> > result of any human intention but instead a "move" of a system living> > its own life while ruling us. The problem is the abstraction and its> > own life *as such*.> >> >> >                                                Grüße> >> >                                                Stefan> > _________________________________> > Web-Site: http://www.oekonux.org/> > Organization: http://www.oekonux.de/projekt/> > Contact: projekt oekonux.de> >>>>> --> The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer> alternatives.>> Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net; Blog, at> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net; Newsletter, at> http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p>> Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499; interview at> http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html> BEST VIDEO ON P2P:> http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=4549818267592301968&hl=en-AU>> KEEP UP TO DATE through our Delicious tags at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,> http://www.shiftn.com/>>> [2 text/html]> _________________________________> Web-Site: http://www.oekonux.org/> Organization: http://www.oekonux.de/projekt/> Contact: projekt oekonux.de>

[2 text/html]�������������������������{��0����{������jب���0����{��zK�����#zK����


Thread: oxenT05101 Message: 14/14 L3 [In index]
Message 05180 [Homepage] [Navigation]