[Converted from multipart/alternative]>> [1 text/plain]> concerning p2p in the p2p social currency model>> - to the degree that individuals can freely generate and give energy, and> take the energy that they need, then this system is p2p as defined by our> p2p theory>> - to the degree that this grid is run by measured exchange, it's a market> system, that is distributed (and in that sense 'p2p', but not in our full> sense) instead of centralized>> so if it is the latter, what's p2p about it, it the distributed nature of> the organization, but nothing else>> of course, it is a legitimate effort to seek an alternative market> mechanism> that internalizes the cost of energy expenditure and that precludes> over-use> of natural resources>>> Michel>> On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 10:24 PM, Stefan Merten <smerten oekonux.de> wrote:>> > Hi Marc!> >> > > [Converted from multipart/alternative]> >> > BTW: It seems to me that the newlines in your post get lost somehow.> > May be this is a bug in the converter used to sanitize> > multipart/alternative mails for the list. In general it's better to> > send plain text only mails here.> >> > 2 weeks (20 days) ago marc fawzi wrote:> > > Here is the latest draft of the P2P Currency model I've been working> on:> > > http://p2pfoundation.net/P2P_Social_Currency_Model> >> > Thanks for structuring this so clearly. It made it easy for me to scan> > a few important things.> >> > > Premise> > >> > > Money is one of the fundamental elements of today's society.> >> > Yes. In fact it structures today's societies more than anything else.> >> > > Changing what money is and how it works will fundamentally change> > society.> >> > Yes. But since money *as such* structures society change only takes> > place when money becomes irrelevant.> >> > > Motivation> > [...]> > > Prior to the collapse, very few people questioned the design of the> > economy.> >> > I was among them ;-) . In fact that collapse has not only been> > foreseen since the 1990's by some thinkers but even explained why it> > ultimately had to happen. *And* why there is no chance to remedy the> > reasons for this [1]_. However, I guess most of this material is only> > available in German.> >> > .. [1] In fact I find it striking how contemporary "analysises" of> > this crash just scratch at the surface. So far I heard nobody> > who were able to really explain what happened recently. In fact> > greed and the things usually used as an "explanation" existed> > throughout capitalism (and before) and thus they are hardly an> > explanation for what happened.> >> > The real explanation is of course that the valorization of> > labor works worse and worse. That is why the financial system> > became more and more important. And in fact there is no reason> > to assume that this can be remedied somehow without giving up> > capitalism.> >> > > Model's Context> > [...]> > > The P2P *Energy* Economy adds the requirement that individual peers> > > must be able to generate their own energy as well as be able to sell> > > their excess energy to other peers, using a distributed electric> > > grid (reference: P2P Energy Production.)> >> > Ah, then I understand why you put the label "P2P" on your model.> > However, I can not see why in a peer production based society everyone> > must be able to generate his/her own energy not talking of the> > possibility of *selling* excess energy.> >> > Unfortunately you didn't give a source so I don't know who made the> > point.> >> > Is there another reason why you use the label "P2P"? I'm asking> > because I worry that the term P2P becomes meaningless if it is put on> > everything.> >> > > Model's Axioms> > >> > > Axioms> > >> > > The following are non-universal axioms (i.e. starting truths for this> > model)> > >> > > 1. Money, as defined here, is a tokenizer of energy and information,> > > and as such it carries both energy and information in every token.> >> > I can't see this is a money definition which makes sense. Money is> > foremost a social relationship and in your definition there is no> > sociality included. In particular human efforts are missing.> >> > > 2. Money, as defined here, does not grow in value on its own, i.e.> > > cannot derive value from itself over time, i.e. 'interest' is not> > > possible.> >> > No money I know of does this. If that would be the case for the money> > in my pocket then I'd kindly ask you for the recipe ;-) .> >> > However,> >> > * the use of money by buying and applying> >> > * means of production and> >> > * (abstract) labor power and> >> > * selling the resulting products> >> > results in surplus value. Interest is only a derived form of surplus> > value.> >> > Also you are putting lots of today's left-wing Western moral in your> > axioms. This makes it hard for other people to accept and therefore> > this seems to me a reason your why model is doomed to fail.> >> > Apart from that: If you replace (renewable) energy by standard labor /> > money then I'd say your axioms are simply given in today's societies.> > Then the question comes up why your model should be any better.> >> > > Iff money, not just peer money, can be derived and used more> > > intelligently, then there is nothing in my (and other people's)> > > operative reality against its existence.> >> > Hah! I respond with an axiom:> >> > * Money systems have the inherent tendency to become the "invisible> > hand" meaning they follow their own logic. Therefore they can not be> > "used more intelligently".> >> > Just kidding. Of course this is not an axiom but the result of an> > analysis of a money based system namely capitalism. In fact there are> > hardly any axioms in social sciences (though there are also very few> > in mathematics).> >> > 2 weeks (20 days) ago marc fawzi wrote:> > > Patrick,> > >> > > Thanks for your feedback.> >> > I think Patrick's observations are very good and he really put the> > finger on your weak spot. Your reply shows that in fact your model has> > exactly the same problems as capitalism.> >> > > Re: #1, Abundance comes from the whole (from all peers producing> energy)> > not> > > from ONE peer or ONE group of peers producing so much more energy than> > > everyone else, i.e. dumping energy into the market for the purpose of> > > driving down prices and killing off competition.> >> > Indeed it would be *great* if a single peer would be able and willing> > to supply all the energy needed on earth. Nobody else would need to> > care anymore. I for one am glad that the Linux kernel developers care> > for the kernel the best they can. A single energy provider would be a> > very concrete use value and indeed something I'd strive for.> >> > It is your system that demands that what would be the best thing in> > concrete terms must not happen for the sake of the system. This is> > because your system builds an abstraction - called money - which> > immediately starts a life on its own preventing useful things to> > happen.> >> > If you look carefully it is exactly this own life of the abstraction> > you are complaining about for capitalism:> >> > > We have just watched our monetary system take a dive from the 110th> > > floor (see: global economic meltdown 2008)> >> > In your observation you are right to assume that this was not the> > result of any human intention but instead a "move" of a system living> > its own life while ruling us. The problem is the abstraction and its> > own life *as such*.> >> >> > Grüße> >> > Stefan> > _________________________________> > Web-Site: http://www.oekonux.org/> > Organization: http://www.oekonux.de/projekt/> > Contact: projekt oekonux.de> >>>>> --> The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer> alternatives.>> Wiki and Encyclopedia, at http://p2pfoundation.net; Blog, at> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net; Newsletter, at> http://integralvisioning.org/index.php?topic=p2p>> Basic essay at http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=499; interview at> http://poynder.blogspot.com/2006/09/p2p-very-core-of-world-to-come.html> BEST VIDEO ON P2P:> http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=4549818267592301968&hl=en-AU>> KEEP UP TO DATE through our Delicious tags at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens>> The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,> http://www.shiftn.com/>>> [2 text/html]> _________________________________> Web-Site: http://www.oekonux.org/> Organization: http://www.oekonux.de/projekt/> Contact: projekt oekonux.de>