Message 04548 [Homepage] [Navigation]
Thread: oxenT04024 Message: 15/41 L8 [In index]
[First in Thread] [Last in Thread] [Date Next] [Date Prev]
[Next in Thread] [Prev in Thread] [Next Thread] [Prev Thread]

Re: [ox-en] Peer Economy. A Transition Concept.

[Converted from multipart/alternative]

[1 text/plain]

I wonder if you could elaborate on the issue of what Rose White said?

interestingly, graham seaman on oekonux just told us he got a bunch of
confidential information, showing how the US govt is punishing firms using
open designs ...

curious to know more about this as welll,


On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 11:29 PM, Smári McCarthy <spm2> wrote:

Hi all, sorry for a late reply.

Many words could be wasted on this discussion. And while wasting words is
something I do a lot of, I'm going to be a bit concise for a change. Poke me
if you wish me to elaborate on any point.

First off, it should be clear to anybody who doesn't subscribe to
Bureaucracy Monthly that trusting a few large companies to keep their
designs free is something that will end badly. If systematic monopolization
is granted legally (by way of any process) to the likes of Intel, AMD,
Motorola, etc, it's only a matter of time until we all end up in tears. And
this is without even thinking about privacy issues or the subject of free
hardware (i.e., hardware that does what the owner wants it to, not what the
providers of the bits flowing through the hardware wants it to). Sun
Microsystems is the only large company that is approaching chip fabrication
with any sense of moral decency at the moment, and they're only doing so
because they can ramp up their market value by doing so. Morality sells,
oddly enough.

As for inkjet-style polymer based electronics.. phew. I wish. There have
been a number of attempts done at this. I refer to the following for more
*    S.B. Fuller, E.J. Wilhelm and J.M. Jacobson, Ink-jet printed
nanoparticle microelectromechanical systems, IEEE Journal of
Microelectromechanical Systems, Volume 11, Issue 1, p. 54-60
*    B. A. Ridley, B. Nivi, and J. M. Jacobson, "All-inorganic field
effect transistors fabricated by printing," Science, vol. 286, pp. 746-749,
*    Saul Griffith, Growing Machines, MIT PhD Thesis, 2004
*    R.A. Lee and D.R. Whittaker, Laser created silicon vias for stacking
dies in MCMs, Electronics Manufacturing Technology Symposium, 1991.,
Eleventh IEEE/CHMT International

I can cite numerous other references about this subject. Suffice to say,
it's still a heavy research issue, mostly because, in my view:
* The people trying to do this stuff are still thinking of routing as a
preprocessing issue rather than just another plotting point
* People still think of transistors, etc, as bulky discrete elements
rather than little droplets of liquid 3 atoms across (as can be done, see
numerous articles online)
* People are not willing to accept a 30% failure rate on "inkjet" printed
surfaces, which is about what you can expect to get in terms of incorrectly
placed pixels, offsets and bad ink etc in tabletop inkjets.
* Redundancy in electronics is still considered expensive, despite
evidence to the contrary.
* Even if everybody had access to an "inkjet" that could print arbitrary
circuit boards, say with 26µm voxel/pixel granularity, most people wouldn't
have the foggiest idea what to do with it. The industrial revolution was
purposefully kept out of the homes by the owners of the methods and
processes. If you don't believe me, look at the history of knitting (an
excellent talk on the subject was done by Rose White at some conference, I
forget which.) This has slowed down the adoption of home electronics, and
it's frankly a wonder that the original Apple computer ever got built - true

I recommend looking at the OpenSPARC II CPU if you're interested in this
kind of thing, and ask yourself "if I could make one of these in my kitchen
at zero marginal cost, how would it change the way I live my life?" I'd love
to hear your answer.

 - Smári

Michel Bauwens wrote:


if the content about us policy is true, thanks for letting us know any
details for publication, as this would be a bombshell ...

I don't know about polymer activities, so I'm copying a few people who
might be aware of it,


On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 3:49 PM, graham <graham> wrote:

Michel Bauwens wrote:

 I think there is actually quite a bit of activity around open
hardware/physical production through open design communities

only 2-3 years ago, the field was in the doldrums, with negative
assessments of the previous wave of experiments (expressed by graham
seaman if I'm not mistaken); but as I discovered about 6 months ago,
and which prompted me to create the design pages, see, the field is again in a
strong moment of re-emergence, with tons of practical projects
emerging in all kinds of fields:

  Yes, that was me, though the assessment was only negative in the
sense that
the kind of cumulative process seen in the creation of Linux, which I
expected to see repeated in chip design, had not yet happened. I still
that what is happening now (in electronics, I don't know about other
shows that the underlying pressures towards peer production are still
- and even increasing - but that the breakthrough has not yet
(maybe a bad choice of word ;-).

 Until recently I thought the sense of disappointment I felt was due
to my
having misunderstood the processes going on at a logical level; in
particular the relation between commercial and 'hobbyist' designers,
is clearly even more important here than it is for free software.

 However, someone just sent me a huge pile of documents he says show
the US government has been systematically working to isolate any
medium to
large scale companies working with free designs. I'm not sure how real
is till I get a chance to read it (though the guy knows far more than
about both the technical and the commercial sides of electronics), or
what I
should do with it if it does look real, but it is certainly a
In which case the reasons are political, and once again show the
tendency of
oekonux-like thinking to underestimate the political...

 Aside from conventional chip design - do you know of anyone working
on free
development of polymer-based electronics using ink-jet printers? If
not, why
do you think there isn't? It seems such a logical area to extend to,
surely there must be people with both knowledge of polymers and links
peer production?


 Contact: projekt

Smári McCarthy
(+354) 662 2701   - "Technology is about people"

The P2P Foundation researches, documents and promotes peer to peer

Wiki and Encyclopedia, at; Blog, at; Newsletter, at

Basic essay at; interview at

KEEP UP TO DATE through our Delicious tags at

The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,

[2 text/html]
Contact: projekt

Thread: oxenT04024 Message: 15/41 L8 [In index]
Message 04548 [Homepage] [Navigation]