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Re: [ox-en] Re: The Future of Un-Money // was "Re: There IS such a thing as peer money"



I just realized the level of misunderstanding that exists between us,and the lack of wisdom in attacking a model before understanding it.
I shall save my breath on individual replies to each point here.
The summary response is:
It's not about free vs not free. It's about the flow of energy (bothas electricity and currency) from peer to peer in equality-maximizingmanner, so that no one starves and no one becomes too flooded with it.
As far as land goes, it's scarce. Just because you can keep walking onthe ground it doesn't mean that the earth is flat and infinite. As youknow, it's finite and human population keeps growing, which makes landincreasingly  scarce over time. So the model I'm working with workswith what is sustainably abundant at this time, i.e. energy, as thebasis for sustainable abundance in everything except the materialbasis of the economy, i.e. land, which is not sustainably abundantgiven constant population growth.
There is nothing capitalistic about recognizing physical constraintsand doing the best to enable a better model of society.
For more context, see: constrained nonconvex optimization

On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 1:55 PM, Stefan Merten <smerten oekonux.de> wrote:> Hi Marc and all!>> Sorry for replying to the thread post by post. Bad habit. I reply to> all the remaining posts in this thread in this one.>> Last week (8 days ago) marc fawzi wrote:>> P2P theories recognize the requirement to keep peer exchange ratios>> (inflow/outflow) at near unity (i.e. you get as much as you give) in>> order to have a sustainable peer production economy>> Well, all I can say that such a P2P theory contradicts observable> reality of peer production (and thus is not a theory worth talking> about). In the contrary the very sustainable economies of Free> Software, Wikipedia and others do *not* require you to give *anything*> to be allowed to take. This applies to the micro perspective as well> as to the macro perspective.>> In fact one of the key characteristics of peer production is its> external openness which exactly means "you don't need to give to be> allowed to take".>> 6 days ago marc fawzi wrote:>> Yes, but those processes also have a continuous cost in energy>> required to power them (whatever type of energy) and since energy is>> finite>> Well, on the human scale you can safely assume that energy is> infinite. Converting all matter into energy gives you so much energy> that the universe contracts before this runs out or tears itself away> (depending on which cosmology you prefer).>>> it has to come from somewhere, which given current technology>> In fact technology is an important point here. So if you are haunted> by too little available energy you could probably think of ways of> inventing a technology which solves the problem?>>> (we don't have zero-cost energy production and distribution, (e.g.>> pocket sized nuclear generators that substitute for food,>> information, interaction, entertainment, etc, all the things we need>> to live which cost energy,) then energy is ultimately taken away from>> someone and that someone needs to be compensated in potential energy>> If it is excess energy: Why is it necessary to compensate? After all> nobody is taken away something s/he needs.>> What you are suggesting is in fact the property model of capitalism:> property as way to exclude others from using something they need. They> are only allowed to use it if they pay you. This is exactly the> abstraction / logic because of which x million children a year suffer> from starvation...>>>                                                Grüße>>                                                Stefan> _________________________________> Web-Site: http://www.oekonux.org/> Organization: http://www.oekonux.de/projekt/> Contact: projekt oekonux.de>�������������������������{��0����{������jب���0����{��zK�����#zK����


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