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Re: Money trickery vs. peer production (was: Re: [ox-en] The i-WAT system.)

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Dear Stefan,

I'm really amazed that you can write such an amazing list of mistakes!!

so let me correct them:

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 3:25 AM, Stefan Merten <smerten> wrote:

Hi StefanN and all!

Today Stefan Noack wrote:
I've been following the list for sime time and often read the term
"Peer-to-Peer Money".

Unfortunately this is probably true :-( .

So i researched what that is and I am truly
amazed by the idea!

Well, let me say that money in general has nothing to do with peer
production - which the Oekonux project is about. Look at Free Software
or Wikipedia where money - if it exists at all - is only at the
borders but not at the core.

- pure non-reciprocal peer production is absolutely related with money,
because its participants need it to survive, in one way or another; this is
an empirical fact, even if you are a rentier, or doing it as a student,
money is coming in from somewhere; both free software and wikipedia, are
suffused with money (of course, we all know that there is volunteering and
non-reciprocal exchange, but to claim that it is absolutely unrelated is

Peer to peer money in addition, is a justifiable concept, in the sense of
'socially producing money', rather than state or private production; one can
even imagine a non-reciprocal activity, which is generated some kind of
'money' that can be used for the non-reciprocal activities; so the concept
is not anti-thetical

Money trickery does the opposite putting money to the core and make
the society revolve around it - like in capitalism. Since the absence
of money is one of the cornerstones of peer production theoretically
and practically something like peer production money is a
contradiction in terms. (I can't speak of P2P money because P2P to
most people means illegally copying music or movies.)

same mistake as above, but in addition, the perspective is wrong; nearly
everything is revolving  around money right now, but around a very
dysfunctional form; open and p2p monies are an improvement on that; just as
say, cooperatives are an improvement over for-profit enterprises; or organic
food is better than toxic food; it's important to see the direction of a
process, the shades of grey, not a static black and white view of the world,
where a utopian but as yet un-existing alternative, is used to debunk any
real and concrete advancement in social practices

I instantly want to participate in such a

There have been countless of such systems for about 100 years now and
they all failed. And there are reasons for this. Reasons which are
constantly ignored by alternative money proponents.

Again, this is such a wrong-headed view. The empirical reality is that there
have been many experiments, and many have been succesful in all kinds of
ways. That doesn't mean they are not limited, that there are no failures,
and that many modes are insufficiently transformative, but this is the aim
of a real and constructive critique, that knows what it is talking about,
and not the ignorant drivel that you are presenting here, based on a total
refusal to study the evidence, out of ideological blindness

Ideas like this come up if the standard money system gets into a
crisis and people have no idea how to go on without money. Peer
production shows how to go on without money. Probably for the first
time in history this is the case.

So Stefan, are you living without money: I'd really love to know how you and
the millions like you are doing this ... I know some people here on this
continent living wihtout any money, and I can tell you they don't like it

Again, don't confuse non-reciprocal peer production, based on an underlying
money infrastructure, for a full money-less economy which provides you food,
water, and all the things you need for your bodymind to survive

Though, i could not find anything "real" on the internet,
most of that what i found was discussions.

What you see is a clear indication that it is in fact a political
ideology rather a practical reality. Again: The opposite of peer
production where you see discussions *after* the practical projects
came into being.

Again, empirically easily demonstrated to be totally false, see and the many other resources its
point to, to find a thriving and real social movement, engaged with real
practices and projects; complementary currencies, in all their variations,
are just as real as free software, and as yet much more real than say open

Well, this is a long debate. You may want to check the archive for
countless threads - though most of them are somewhat pointless because
neither side is ready to accepts premises of the other side.

Accepting premises is one thing, but unfortunately, your premises simply
make you ignore reality.

I'm waiting for a real debate, from people who can acknowledge empirical
realities, yet have a solid critique of the social practice,

Perhaps if you'd be willing to do your homework and document yourself, one
day you may be able to offer such a critique, I sincerely hope you do,

There's a lot of intelligent critique of alternative money approaches that
could be made, even for example that it is the wrong thing to focus on,
which I could accept, but it has to come from people willing to do the
intellectual effort to study social movements and their failings,

I'm waiting, but have concluded that it will not come from the leadership of
Oekonux, unwilling to do that effort of documenting itself with an open


I for one think that theory *and* practice make a clear distinction
between money trickery and peer production. I choose peer production
because this is the future. Either this or there will be none.

Peer production will likely expand, and even become the core principle of a
new phase of human civilisation, but for a long transition period, and, in
my opinion, even in a peer to peer driven society, there will be a plurarity
of practices amongst which a healthy form of exchange, will be an important



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