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[ox-en] Re: [p2p-research] [p2pf] Launch of P2P Research Group

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If the relationship is recognized formally then that's beneficial to both
P2Pf and Hull University, IMHO.

It will allow the loose bunch of us (all contributors) whose only
relationship to P2Pf is the trust we have in you personally to extend that
trust in working with the P2P Research Group. It's a win win.

And then we can leverage that (or "build on it") to pursue the idea of an
advisory board for P2Pf.

Having said that, I don't see a way around peer producing The P2P Agenda (or

I'll be happy to start that process using the agile methodology, but I am
more bandwidth starved now compared to 5 months ago so the writing will
start awkwardly, trickle at first but I'm sure it will eventually mature.


On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 1:18 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004>wrote:

On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 3:00 PM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi> wrote:


My questions to you:

1. Is the P2P Research Group affiliated with P2P Foundation such that we
can say that P2P Foundation has a collaboration initiative with a recognized
[academic] institution?  Else, what new progress are we leveraging? and if
nothing then why wasn't this pursued earlier? Is it just that no one had the
time to write a manifesto or constitution? (which leads to #2)

Hi Marc, this initiative was discussed in Nottingham in 2007, at our 2nd
informal p2p meet-up, but because of funding and other difficulties, Athina
only confirmed in Manchester, that she could start the process now.

Athina can provide us with some of the legal background to having it
established it in Hull, and presumably, there will be some institutional
limitations related to the funder's point of view.

As to the precise relationship between this and p2p-f, it is not clear to
me, but I would say that I would like the two to be related somehow, how
this can be done in a formal or legal way I don't know, but at the minimum,
I would like that relationship to be recognized. Of course, I'm not implying
any dependency, but rather a reputational/relational value linkage.

The new that we can leverage will be hopefully : 1) funding for meetings 2)
funding for specific research.

I think that recognizing p2p as a legimitate research area is an important
goal to achieve.

And no, we haven't had time to write up anything on it yet, giving tha the
decision was only made in Manchester 2-3 weeks ago.

2. Does there have to be some major write up or presentation of P2P
Foundation goals, etc?

There are various statements etc ... already up in the wiki, such as the
about page. If you want more, I have nothing against it, though I don't feel
a particular need for that one. I would be more concerned with a
constitution for the research group, and eventually later, with a more
explicit political statement that could lead to the creation of a political
wing, whenever the time is ripe for that. For the p2p-f in the narrow sense,
I think we have enough, as it has to be open and pluralist enough to serve
for various purposes, with people which may have different political points
of view

My answer to your question:

I'm willing and able to do as much as help shape and carry the message...
which is to say that I'm ready to do my part as part of a team effort.
Ryan's and others' help would be necessary, too.

Task delegation model:

I think we could go with a conditional publish-subscribe model for task
delegation whereby the initiator would be willing to commit time and energy
to their declared objective if there are others who are willing to commit
time and energy to it, too.

My experience is the following. Every task/project needs one or more
'owner-maintainer-gardener'(s) ... This does not mean the person has to do
everything, but just feel responsible for it, and push it so that it goes

When I'm asking somebody else, just as you in this case, this is my wish,
and my committment is to help, but I cannot carry it, because of the already
overwhelming combination of tasks I have set myself.

If you take the lead, other people will surely follow,

If not, if despite your leadership it doesn't happen, it means the time is
not ripe, or our context is not favourable, but we can at least try,



On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 12:35 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004


just so we understand each other, I'm talking for a board of advisors for
the p2p foundation, not for the p2p research group, which is a separate

do you agree with starting the process, perhaps through a wiki page, P2P
Wisdom Council ?

Lessig is going to be difficult I think (I'll explain that separately, as
this is a public mailing list), but I'm much more hopeful with people like
Yochai Benkler, Howard Rheingold, and others,

I just need one 'co-owner' to start this, but don't want to do this
entirely on my own,


On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 2:29 PM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi>wrote:

Hi Michel,

It's the next logical move, IMO, after having gained a recognized
university/academic collaborator in the UK. I guess I can talk to yourself
and Athina about the existing collaborative project with Hull so I can lay
out the case for further academic collaboration in the context of a board of

I had communicated with Lessig once very casually during his considering
to run for Congress and he replied right away and in meaningful and genuine

Overall, I find it fairly easy to get a genuine response back from
actual intellectuals as they don't tend to play the politics of artificial
self-scarcity (I also know that pseudo intellectuals who are in it for money
and power tend to raise their self importance by not answering emails from
people they don't know or being extremely slow in response or very
superficial etc... so we have an automatic filter right there by being
relatively unknown.)

My issue is that I'm not too familiar with the who's who of the P2P
world. I only know of Larry Lessig for his copyright reform efforts but I'm
sure we can dig up a few people at MIT and Harvard, but it should work like
a domino effect.

This would be a good idea, IMO, and if I fail at it then the issue would
be just mine not of the idea itself so another person can try again,
although I don't wanna waste any bullets so to speak.

I'll look for separate discussion email from you with appropriate CCs.


On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 11:16 PM, Michel Bauwens <
michelsub2004> wrote:

Hi Marc,

as you perhaps know, the P2P Foundation is both a global informal
group, but with a dormant legal entity under Dutch law, which already has a

I'm more interested in setting up a board of advisors, with people who
could lend their prestige to our projects, by accepting to sit in this

Would you be willing to help me with this, so as to make it a reality?
It's an old project and dream of mine, which got lost on the sideways, but
if you're willing to take the co-lead, I can work on it. We should start by
drawing a list of names.

If you agree, and since it is not a research issue, perhaps we can use
the p2pf mailing list to work on it? I can also create a wiki page to
consolidate suggestions. Once we have an agreed list, we can start
approaching them individually,


On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 6:55 AM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi>wrote:

Hi Michel,

Would it make sense to setup a "board of directors" kind of entity
(but not call it that per se) for the P2P Foundation with people who bring
extravagant weight.. the likes of Lessig and people of his reach and



On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963>wrote:

I applaud this initiative and bravo to those offering the funding.
On the other hand, lists of  "researchers" meaning people at academic
institutions who write papers for journals seems a failed model that is less
in need of reinforcement than rejection.

Research in an academic sense is not p2p, hasn't been, and never will
be.  I would not exclude it, I just would feed it by giving it additional
free assets of prestige and focus without their earning those resources in
open (truly open) communities.

Ryan Lanham

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 5:09 AM, Michel Bauwens <
michelsub2004> wrote:

    I´m extremely happy to announce this initiative, which will
enable people interested in p2p dynamics to more easily appeal for research

B  elow is a short announcement from Athina Karatzogianni, please
ask for the document that she is referring to in her email listed below. If
you are involved with research, academic or not, please let us know and do
forward this message to other networks.

If you have no access to the attached document, please request one
from Athina via email

Michel Bauwens


"The P2P Foundation <> in collaboration
with the University of Hull <>are creating a
P2PResearch Group (P2PRG) with a physical base in Hull, in order to initiate
a material equivalent to the various virtual networks we are all part of.
Some of the goals of the group are to attract funding to improve already
existent infrastructures, create more material and immaterial networks and
hubs and capture funding for research, conferences and workshops. A
conference scheduled for November will also produce a direct and transparent
steering committee to oversee the various activities of the group.
Therefore, it would be particularly helpful, if everyone, who is interested
in participating, fills as much information as they can, in the document
attached, and email it to Athina<>at

see and forward doc attached (please edit doc michel as you see fit)


Dr Athina Karatzogianni
Lecturer in Media, Culture and Society
The Dean's Representative (Chinese Partnerships)
Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
The University of Hull
United Kingdom
T: ++44 (0) 1482 46 5790
F: ++44 (0) 1482 466107

Dr Athina Karatzogianni
Lecturer in Media, Culture and Society
The Dean's Representative (Chinese Partnerships)
Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
The University of Hull
United Kingdom
T: ++44 (0) 1482 46 5790
F: ++44 (0) 1482 466107

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Marc Fawzi
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Marc Fawzi

Working at - -

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Marc Fawzi

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Monitor updates at

The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,


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