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[ox-en] Re: [p2p-research] [p2pf] Launch of P2P Research Group



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excellent idea Andreas, perhaps we can create a subgroup specifically
dedicated to the future of institutional learning in a p2p suffused
environment

Ryan, I quoted your contribution for a blog excerpt on the 27th,

I think comparing uni's to ford is not the best

universties exist at least since the first medieval renaissance in europe,
and before we had greek academies and in the east, ashrams,

in other words: dedicated places for full-time learning and practice.

I think such places will always be necessary, though not necessarily in the
current institutional setting and neoliberal climate,

a lot will need to be changed before mainstream society starts trusting
un-credentialed p2p learning though, so I'm not betting any chips on the
uni's disappearing 'rapidly'

Michel

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 5:05 AM, Wittel, Andreas
<andreas.wittel ntu.ac.uk>wrote:

Hi Ryan,

thanks for sharing your ideas about p2p unis, Ryan. Interesting stuff. I
don't have any suggestions, just hundreds of questions about knowledge
production (research) and knowledge distribution (teaching). It seems that
this is an issue worth thinking about a bit longer, perhaps in the p2p
research group?
Andreas

________________________________

From: Ryan Lanham [rlanham1963 gmail.com]
Sent: Mon 20/04/2009 19:31
To: Wittel, Andreas
Cc: Athina Karatzogianni; list-en oekonux.org; p2pf yahoogroups.com;
Peer-To-Peer Research List
Subject: Re: [p2p-research] [p2pf] Launch of P2P Research Group


Hi Andreas,

I think your answer was right on the money with regard to what I was
getting at...universities are unlikely to succeed by being more
"business-like" because that is not their mission.

Efficiency is a reasonable objective, but is it achieved by being more
business-like?  I doubt it...unless your mission is to do the things
businesses do--make profits, take market share, satisfy "customers."  A
student isn't a customer--just ask any teacher, and if education is a
product, so then is a degree.  Things earned are not sold to the earner.
 This is far more than a game of semantics; it speaks to organizational
aptness for a given mission.

Universities drive themselves to extinction by becoming businesses.  They
are increasingly irrelevant that way with products and strategies that
corrode and disintegrate.  By being more p2p, they could slip away from
institutional rot, and become far more conceptual...and more powerful.

I do disagree whether p2p is going to wither away capitalism; I think it
might.  Here's why.  Capitalism requires a debt-based economy--that was
Keynes' insight really--the difference between how he saw the creation of
money versus the classical economists.  To achieve a debt economy, you need
investments in capital that can support future cash flows.  Now in the case
of p2p, I think such investments are far fewer and declining.  It is fairly
easy to fragment industrial production into the world Kevin describes in
some of his writings...

Most p2p firms--an intermediate animal in my view--exist by leveraging
investment in knowledge creation--what you say is a plausible mission of
universities.  Google, for instance, or Craig's List or Ebay...all p2p to
one extent or another.  Facilitating p2p is not a likely long-term facility
for garnering cash flows because efficiencies of knowledge arise.  That is
why Microsoft is starting to die...they didn't anticipate cloud computing
and more p2p models like the evolution of Linux.

Institutions were efficient by enabling norms (like how to write a
dissertation) or by exercising bureaucracies.  Neither of those is very
efficient in a p2p world.  So the same sort of institutional melt so many of
us (Michel and Kevin notably, but also panarchists, knowledge management
gurus and e-learning folks who dominate the blogosphere of knowledge work)

Universities have a choice.  They can become more p2p--and some are--or
they can die like the institutional dinosaurs they have become.

What would a p2p university look like?  It would have open degree
validation (like Wales) or some of the Open/Free Universities, it would
implement peer-reviewed degrees for research, it would commit to use and
produce open ideas that are not bound in paid journals or behind
high-tuition walls.  It would dissolve its barriers to entry and to
scholarship--working instead to facilitate fellows and associates more than
tenured faculty.  It would cast a cold eye on formalism in scholarship in
general, and in identity-building scholarship in particular.  Public access,
service learning, learner-centered models and use of social media would far
outstrip classrooms, halls, buildings and walls--both physical and mental.
 It would have research in distant lands and partnerships with facilities
around the world interlinked by electronic nets.  It would grant status and
prestige to a Clay Shirky, Harold Jarche or many similar net-based scholars
as quickly as it would to a nose-to-the-grindstone assistant professor who
publishes some trash in the Journal of Mumble Mumble and gets an editorship
on the equally esoteric (and closed) Journal of TweedleDee.  Harsh, but the
reality is, most of us have stopped listening...and being heard is the p2p
currency...as it is the currency of all thinking.

I believe even in science the tinkerers and DiY guys are coming on
strong--in bioinformatics, genetics, robotics, transhumanism.  Soon perhaps
they will be there in medicine and physics.  Long ago the best social
science moved out of the academy.

Ryan Lanham




On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Wittel, Andreas <andreas.wittel ntu.ac.uk>
wrote:


       Hi Ryan,

       not sure if I understand your question. If you do think that
universities should not be businesses (as I do) why think about examples in
history that show a successful transformation from non-business to business
models? Are you indicating with your question that this change of unis to
corporations will ultimately fail?

       The primary function of universities in one sentence? Perhaps to
contribute to the production and dissemination of knowledge? Obviously there
are other players emerging doing the same thing, collective intelligence
etc. So there is competition, whcih has to be a good thing.

       I really dont think that p2p will wash away capitalism and all
institutions associated with it. I'd rather think of this in terms of
mergers. Any idea what universities would look like if they would go p2p
instead of business?


       Andreas

       ________________________________

       From: Ryan Lanham [rlanham1963 gmail.com]

       Sent: Mon 20/04/2009 03:00

       To: Wittel, Andreas
       Cc: Athina Karatzogianni; list-en oekonux.org; p2pf yahoogroups.com;
Peer-To-Peer Research List
       Subject: Re: [p2p-research] [p2pf] Launch of P2P Research Group


       Hi Andreas,

       Here's a question...a sincere one, not a rhetorical one: Is there
any institution that has, in history, internally reformed satisfactorily by
adopting a business model when no such model existed from the outset?  I
think of New Public Management in government/public affairs as a minimally
successful (and still highly controversial) model.  I'm sure there are
numerous others.

       Universities, like governments, are not businesses.  Businesses
exist to optimize their own survival and to control percentages of
ecological carrying capacities that enrich managers and shareholders.
 Governments exist to achieve stable advancement and protection of normative
social values.  Universities exist to....???

       One can add many predicates.  What is disturbing is that one cannot
think of a defining predicate...particularly one that doesn't entail
prestige and identity enhancement...thinks seemingly at odds with sharing
usable assets optimally.

       I contend p2p exists to simplify and optimize distribution of
resources...it replaces capitalism, institutions, socialism and several
other approaches that aimed to deal with distribution of resources.  p2p is
a form of economics that makes the money component of value subordinate to
efficient distribution with, through, or in spite of money.  Its ethos is
sharing usable assets without creating persons or entities unwilling to
share usable assets. It does this by minimizing overheads associated with
the delivery of sharing.

       Universities were p2p 1.0.  Time to envision 2.0.  No need for the
institutional components.

       Ryan Lanham




       On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 5:27 PM, Wittel, Andreas <
andreas.wittel ntu.ac.uk> wrote:


              Basically I agree with this critique but would offer a twist.
The university as secret society model is rapidly vanishing and making space
for the university as business model. Where university knowledge formerly
has been hidden away, it is now opening up to all kinds of so called
effiencies such as auditing, quality control, usability, just in time
delivery, customer service and so on. Not sure what is worse.
              Andreas

              ________________________________

              From: Ryan Lanham [rlanham1963 gmail.com]
              Sent: Sun 19/04/2009 03:17
              To: Wittel, Andreas
              Cc: Athina Karatzogianni; list-en oekonux.org;
p2pf yahoogroups.com; Peer-To-Peer Research List

              Subject: Re: [p2p-research] [p2pf] Launch of P2P Research
Group


              It seems to me that there are at least two ways institutions
can be judged successful:  First, they can be viewed as survivors in an
ecology.  To succeed, they need only continue.  The second way to success is
in serving some purpose well.

              Monolithic knowledge has few supporters these days.  So if
one opts for the second and more human purpose, there needs to be a mission
beyond "veritas".  Teaching does not seem to be the mission of most
institutions; it is a byproduct.  Few who study teaching find universities
to be particularly good at it, and teaching is rarely studied as a pursuit
in universities outside of the discipline of education.  Boosting people
into competencies is a plausible mission, but even there, universities are
hardly efficient or effective.

              I think universities had two symbiotic purposes--one to imbue
students with associative identity and institutional prestige--with a
byproduct of some learning, and the second, more elemental mission was to
earn that prestige through "scholarship."

              So the real question of the worth or failure of universities
comes back, it seems to me, to the meaning of scholarship.  P2P modes exist
(spontaneously?) for efficiencies of minimalizing institutional
burdens--bureaucracy, identity, prestige, norms, hierachies, etc.

              My condemnation of universities is in finding their
definitions of scholarship to be (too often) solipsistic, removed from
relevance and, more generally, exclusive.  They failed by hiding their
product from transparency.  Instead, they chose to form guilds and to
perfect trade secrets, normative rituals, and to act more like secret
societies than service entities.

              Regardless, knowledge is useful and universities contribute
almost in spite of themselves.  Learned individuals do the right
things--perhaps as Athina is doing--just because they embody the very
desires for meaning, value and efficiency that are at the heart of the p2p
ethos.  In a sense, p2p success at universities requires fighting the
conventional institutional overhead

              When the two blend, the academy washes out the authenticity
of p2p through institutional machinery that simply can't be abandoned by
most.  People need the church acoutrements that Marc suggests exist.  p2p is
thus potentially lost in the very mechanics it innocently undermines.  Like
water against a shore, it will bounce back and meld in because its
dissolving power is very microscopic--at the level of the person...it is not
aggregated to the perspective of people who view the world from
institutional eyes...as land and sea.  But sometimes there are storms and
rapid shifts, to extend a metaphor way too far!

              Ryan Lanham




              On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 5:38 PM, Wittel, Andreas <
andreas.wittel ntu.ac.uk> wrote:


                     This is a interesting question.

                     As I have hosted the workshop in Nottingham, I 'd like
to share my experience with Nottingham Trend Uni. I asked the IT people to
set up a wiki and was told that this is not possible as NTU wanted control
over content. Obviously the result was a dead web site, suitable for
information around the time of the conference, and dead later.

                     I would suspect that most unis have this policy.
Should Hull be more open, and open to a wiki, and willing to fund the site,
then I would welcome this and take advantage of it. However if Hull has (1)
similar concerns about wikis as NTU, and (2) does not fund a non-Hull
website for the research group, I would follow Ryan's suggestion to set up
the p2p research group without uni affiliation.

                     Basically we dont need uni support to set up a
research group. But we do need uni support (in terms of funding) to meet for
conferences and workshops.

                     One more thing. Ryan said ealier.


                     On the other hand, lists of  "researchers" meaning
people at academic institutions who write papers for journals seems a failed
model


                     As much as my academic heart agrees with this due to
all kinds of frustrations in this world, I find this a dangerous statement
as it puts universities in the realm of history. Are you really suggesting
we dont need unis any more? How about newspapers? Art? Literature? Sould all
this (which is under serious threat atm) be allowed to be swept away for
non-insitituational knowledge work to succeed?

                     For those interested in the relevance of history in
the information age I'd recommend Alan Liu (2004), The Laws of Cool.

                     Andreas

                     ________________________________

                     From: p2presearch-bounces listcultures.org on behalf
of Ryan Lanham
                     Sent: Sat 18/04/2009 20:23
                     To: Athina Karatzogianni
                     Cc: list-en oekonux.org; p2pf yahoogroups.com;
Peer-To-Peer Research List
                     Subject: Re: [p2p-research] [p2pf] Launch of P2P
Research Group



                     Thanks, Athina.  I will do what you say.

                      I should note, in the interest of open disclosure,
that I have been an employee of Harvard, Northwestern and Virginia Tech
universities.  It would be disingenuous for me to ride too a horse about
 higher ed.




                      There is a new effort going on now concerning a
charter for best practices in community engagement that may serve as a
suitable base; I will post a link in the next couple of days since I am not
as good as Michel at building stockpiles on de.licio.us <
http://de.licio.us/>  <http://de.licio.us/>  <http://de.licio.us/>  <
http://de.licio.us/> .




                     Anyone else who wishes to offer a collaborative
foundation, method, or tools besides a wiki should gather their thoughts and
speak out as time goes forward.

                     I continue to applaud and welcome the general concept
and can imagine the risks and frustrations associated with moving forward.

                     Ryan Lanham




                     On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 2:02 PM, Athina Karatzogianni
<athina.k gmail.com> wrote:


                            Hi Ryan

                            I am all for what you propose, please take the
initiative.

                            I would also like to add here if I may, in
response one of your previous emails, the fact that i happen to be an
academic and hull is interested in supporting this effort (i have kept
 chasing them around for the past 2 years!) is somehow causing political
concern in terms of excluding non academics and other more serious
ideological issues, which I recognize as valid.

                            Nevertheless, it feels a constant barrier
having to defend any sort of effort of volunteering my time. Those that know
me personally and my work more generally will know were my political
loyalties have been and will continue to be. They are not with institutions
and certainly not with hierarchies.

                            Please take the lead in this, and whoever else
wants to take initiatives they are here to be taken. I am not excluding
anyone and neither does what happens to be my current affiliation. In a way
I am trying to say that this is a research group for p2p researchers, how
can it have different logic and how it can exclude anyone? I have taken it
for granted that it has a peer logic. Doing charters and discussing
governance perhaps someone like you can the the lead in. All I trying to do
is set up, host everyone for a first time in hull to discuss all these
issues and create some sort of governance structure for the group when we
meet face to face and get some funding going.

                            Cheers

                            Athina


                            On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Ryan Lanham <
rlanham1963 gmail.com> wrote:


                                    Hi Michel,

                                    Thanks.  A constitution isn't a bad
idea, but rather than one drafter, I'll look for a starting point that is
more collaborative and perhaps an open section of the wiki could be used to
gather broad inpur.  I'd be happy to shepherd and encourage that process.

                                    Perhaps others with interests in open
and collaborative governance could take significant roles in editing.


                                    Ryan Lanham
                                    rlanham1963 gmail.com

                                    Facebook: Ryan_Lanham




                                    On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 1:13 AM, Michel
Bauwens <michelsub2004 gmail.com> wrote:


                                            Hi Ryan,

                                            I don't think any social or
political change project can bypass altogether all institutions, it needs to
work both within and without. This being said, while aiming for funding
obviously demands playing by some rules, I think that for all participants
who believe in the P2P ethos, no research project can or should be exclusive
to academic researchers. In my view, the new group should also be able to
assist non-academic researchers.

                                            Perhaps, we could write a
manifesto of sorts, that would serve as the 'constitution' of the group,
which would specific this,

                                            Would you be interested in
taking the lead in writing this?

                                            Michel


                                            On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 5:37
AM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 gmail.com> wrote:




                                                    I applaud this
initiative and bravo to those offering the funding.  On the other hand,
lists of  "researchers" meaning people at academic institutions who write
papers for journals seems a failed model that is less in need of
reinforcement than rejection.

                                                    Research in an academic
sense is not p2p, hasn't been, and never will be.  I would not exclude it, I
just would feed it by giving it additional free assets of prestige and focus
without their earning those resources in open (truly open) communities.

                                                    Ryan Lanham





                                                    On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at
5:09 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 gmail.com> wrote:




                                                            I´m extremely
happy to announce this initiative, which will enable people interested in
p2p dynamics to more easily appeal for research funding.

                                                            B  elow is a
short announcement from Athina Karatzogianni, please ask for the document
that she is referring to in her email listed below. If you are involved with
research, academic or not, please let us know and do forward this message to
other networks.

                                                            If you have no
access to the attached document, please request one from Athina via email



                                                            Michel Bauwens




                                                            Text:


                                                            "The P2P
Foundation <http://p2pfoundation.net/>  in collaboration with the
University of Hull <http://www.hull.ac.uk/> are creating a P2PResearch
Group (P2PRG) with a physical base in Hull, in order to initiate a material
equivalent to the various virtual networks we are all part of. Some of the
goals of the group are to attract funding to improve already existent
infrastructures, create more material and immaterial networks and hubs and
capture funding for research, conferences and workshops. A conference
scheduled for November will also produce a direct and transparent steering
committee to oversee the various activities of the group. Therefore, it
would be particularly helpful, if everyone, who is interested in
participating, fills as much information as they can, in the document
attached, and email it to Athina <
http://www.hull.ac.uk/humanities/media_studies/staff/athina_karatzogianni/>
 at athina.k gmail.com"


                                                            see and forward
doc attached (please edit doc michel as you see fit)

                                                            athina



                                                            --
                                                            Dr Athina
Karatzogianni
                                                            Lecturer in
Media, Culture and Society
                                                            The Dean's
Representative (Chinese Partnerships)
                                                            Faculty of Arts
and Social Sciences
                                                            The University
of Hull
                                                            United Kingdom
                                                            HU6 7RX
                                                            T: ++44 (0)
1482 46 5790
                                                            F: ++44 (0)
1482 466107

http://www.hull.ac.uk/humanities/media_studies/staff/athina_karatzogianni/







                                                            --
                                                            Dr Athina
Karatzogianni
                                                            Lecturer in
Media, Culture and Society
                                                            The Dean's
Representative (Chinese Partnerships)
                                                            Faculty of Arts
and Social Sciences
                                                            The University
of Hull
                                                            United Kingdom
                                                            HU6 7RX
                                                            T: ++44 (0)
1482 46 5790
                                                            F: ++44 (0)
1482 466107

http://www.hull.ac.uk/humanities/media_studies/staff/athina_karatzogianni/






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                                            --
                                            Working at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

                                            Volunteering at the P2P
Foundation:



                                             http://p2pfoundation.net <
http://p2pfoundation.net/>  <http://p2pfoundation.net/>  <
http://p2pfoundation.net/>  <http://p2pfoundation.net/>   -
http://blog.p2pfoundation.net <http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/>  <
http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/>  <http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/>  <
http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/>  - http://p2pfoundation.ning.com <
http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/>  <http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/>  <
http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/>  <http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/>




                                            Monitor updates at
http://del.icio.us/mbauwens

                                            The work of the P2P Foundation
is supported by SHIFTN, http://www.shiftn.com/



_______________________________________________
                                            p2presearch mailing list
                                            p2presearch listcultures.org

http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org







                            --
                            Dr Athina Karatzogianni
                            Lecturer in Media, Culture and Society
                            The Dean's Representative (Chinese
Partnerships)
                            Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
                            The University of Hull
                            United Kingdom
                            HU6 7RX
                            T: ++44 (0) 1482 46 5790
                            F: ++44 (0) 1482 466107

http://www.hull.ac.uk/humanities/media_studies/staff/athina_karatzogianni/








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-- 
Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
http://p2pfoundation.ning.com

Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens

The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
http://www.shiftn.com/


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