Re: [ox-en] No more money trickery propaganda please
- From: "Franz Nahrada" <f.nahrada reflex.at>
- Date: Sat, 09 May 2009 08:05:46 +0200
Marc: totally interesting post, but totally off-topic.
We need to find some focus here. I am very very tempted to indulge in this
langauage discussion, because I brought the example of langauge not by
accident, but again its quite difficult to confront so many subscribers
with such a specialised discussion without relation to the subject. It
should be the subject of totally new social relations and economical
possibilities emerging that fascinates us together, not discussions about
the nature of this and that.
So coming to your point and trying to use your post constructively I
rather would ask if language could be considered a good structural example
for a non-market, free transfering structure of - if you like - "thought
infrastructure" similar to Free Software or not. If you think (like others
- that language routs in a non-verbal and non-visual process per se -- and
I think you are closer to Chomsky than you think here --, you might still
ask if the acts of expression of this thinking by language *alter* or
*touch* or *enrich* the non-visual/non-verbal structure in your brain.
Its a very funny irony that Genevieve Vaughan was originally married to
linguist Ferrucio Rossi - Landi whose book "language as labour and market"
caused a lot of excitement and controversy in students circles when it was
published in German in 1974. It is very interesting because it also was
such an example of that postmodernist way of thinking that Smari just felt
Like some of us did at the time, Genevieve also had to breakt the limits
of that thinking, take up the positive impusle and the provocation of this
strange juxtaposition, and study the real nature of the phenomenon that
she was dealing with. It is another story that she might have been ending
with locking it into the walls of another concept. But that is also good,
because if "Giving" can not adequately describe the nature of the process,
we discover a deeper pattern that is neither giving nor labour nor market.
Wow - how much I would like to write my theory of language right away here
but I must disappoint you and myself. The only thing that I say here is
that the structure obviously refines itself by constant use and attention.
It cannot exist without social interaction, maybe even defining what
social interaction is and not the other way round. (Hi Sociologists!)
Having said this, I apologize that I brought those remarks and created an
easy excuse for some people not to focus on the main question that I asked
of how to frame the Oekonux list so it becomes something special and
unique with its task of advancing us in the study of the phenomena of peer
production. Maybe one should come up with a list of questions that we dont
know the answer to but want to find it, not just want but need badly. And
with suspicions why we would find the answer especially here.
Marc Fawzi writes:
I have no native tongue per se so when I think I don't think in words.
There are many people like me and it may be the norm for all I know.
The closest way to describing it is "I stare at something, most likely
something totally unrelated like the ceiling or my laptop screen or
anything, and all the sudden patterns emerge non-visually and
non-audibly and all I can feel is that there is something going on in
my mind, i.e. a felt experience of commotion or patterns emerging and
coming together, unraveling or destroying each other, and then I start
writing down or drawing some idea or scheme.
Where is "language" in that?
We've been moving around from place to place since I was 2 years old,
and eventually at age 15 we settled in English speaking countries but
English was only as a written medium for me (i didn't socialize much
until I was 27) so I have 10 years total of English as a spoken
language and only fragmented ability to speak two foreign languages
I don't hear words or narratives when I "think" unless I am parsing a
written sentence or constructing one. It's easy with maths and
software since it's all symbolic (non-spoken, except labels, numbers
Contact: projekt oekonux.de