Re: [ox-en] Re: [ox] Re: Oekonux and politics
- From: Thomas Berker <thomas.berker hf.ntnu.no>
- Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 14:09:56 +0200
--On 11. oktober 2003 02:50 [PHONE NUMBER REMOVED] smerten oekonux.de wrote:
This went only to [ox-en]. I don't know whether this was intended.
Sort of, because I did not find the mail I was replying to on the German
list.
1 hours ago Thomas Berker wrote:
I really
think your understanding of 'the left' is quite limited.
[I just deleted 22 lines about my political life since 1989. This is a
bit to much of striptease ;-) . Anybody interested may send me a
private mail and I'll send these 22 lines.]
Frankly: I think I *really* know what I'm talking about...
Never be too sure about what you know! Ok, you made bad experiences. I made
good and bad experiences, so what? I am not generalising from my
experiences - as you do dismissing 200 years of leftwing politics. Instead
I try to define, which kind of politics I want. And within the political
left I find that politics more often.
[...] At the moment we have some support in the Free Software
community - which is really not self-evident. This support is vital
for Oekonux and IMHO it could be more. Putting this support at stake
is IMHO wanting to kill Oekonux.
This almost sounds like you want to defend Oekonux from a death threat.
However, in my understanding this discussion is rather about which
people we want to have at the conference. Is it the guy who enjoys
coding but is bored or even scared away by the words 'left',
'exploitation' or 'capitalism', is it the professor, who is used to a
comfortable hotel as reward for his precious presence, or is it the guy
who appreciates sleeping on the floor when s/he is in turn able to have
endless discussions (as another Thomas described his experience from
the first conference). One size does not fit it all and there is no
neutrality. Instead, there are choices whom to trust, with whom to
share beds, to discuss and spend time.
Exactly. I just want to make sure that the professor who at least
wants to have a bed has a chance to talk with young people liking mass
accommodation as well as the Vienna based hacker.
My point was that you cannot be bedfellows with everyone. Different people
will be attracted by different conference settings. You have to choose. And
here we are talking about a _political_ choice, which also always excludes
people.
[...] And some even want to start sailing on to new shores.
In other words: Practice. I think I outlined where I think Oekonux is
at least relating to practice more than enough now. I'd really like to
hear some arguments why this is irrelevant.
In other words politics: I think that Okonux' practice is not irrelevant
but it could become more relevant.
[...] Once and for all: You are free to invite Oekonux to the ASF. If
someone from Oekonux wants to do something there - good. What this
someone does exactly can hardly be determined here. If you, however,
say: If the Oekonux conference does not want to be part of the ASF
then Oekonux should not happen at all at the ASF then simply do not
invite Oekonux.
I find the second position absolutely arrogant but frankly: That is
what I'm used to from the traditional left: If you do not comply
completely then you are not our friend.
FranzS never wrote that.
He did. The most explicit statement was:
2 weeks (14 days) ago franz schaefer wrote:
> hallo stefan, hallo poxer.
>> Ja. Das spricht alles für eine *Darstellung* von Oekonux auf dem ASF
- >> aber nicht für eine Oekonux-Konferenz.
>
> sowas kommt nicht gut an. die haltung "wir gehen dort hin und zeigen
euch > einwenig was wir alles haben". das forum sollte eher ein ort der
interaktion > sein. ideen austauschen und nicht dozieren. andrenfalls
wird es als arroganz > interpretiert "von euch gibt es nichts zu
lernen".
[http://www.oekonux.de/projekt/liste/archive/msg02965.html]
But other statements were similar. In particular he never welcomed
that Oekonux simply could give a presentation as it would have been
the case if the ASF would not be planned at the same time as the
Oekonux conference anyway.
Yes, he argues that a collocation of conference and social forum would be
better than the other setting. He writes that there is a certain arrogance
in the common practice where someone from Oekonux is _explaining_ Okonux
and Free Software to the outside world in a presentation. I think he has a
point there.
Now for the suggestion. I think we (i.e. me and some other people with
you and some other people) have a real conflict here. One of the good
things I learned from the anarchists (aka traditional left) is that
explicit conflict resolution / mediation is a good thing. I am willing
to enter an explicit conflict resolution / mediation in some separate
space (i.e. not over the lists which is a killer for every conflict
resolution). We "just" need someone helping us and your willingness to
engage in such a process. I once had a virtual mediation which was one
of the greatest experiences in my political life. I had non-virtual
conflict resolutions which were quite good. I think this could help
turning back to a constructive discussion - if this is still wanted.
So I'd like to ask:
* Would you, ThomasB, be willing to enter such a process?
I don't think so. We have a real disagreement about what Oekonux should be.
But that is nothing really new. Fortunately we two don't have to decide
what Oekonux will be. So, I'd rather suggest to shut up for a while and let
the others write.
Best, Thomas Be
_______________________
http://www.oekonux.org/