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Re: What is the mission? (was: Re: [ox-en] Re: Role of markets)



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The real problem, a problem that has existed with humans pretty much
throughout human existence, is that ****when you tell people what you
perceive to be the truth, they often will not understand what you are
telling them in the way that you intend****

They will filter it through **their** world view, dismiss the parts
that they think collide with **their** version of the "truth", and
accept those that resonate with their fundamental assumptions about
reality.

<snip>

 At least as many if not more are incredulous to the very
notion that anything but capitalistic markets will work.

What you describe very clearly has a scientific term: fetishism. I
cannot explain and illustrate this better than you did. Capitalist
markets seems to be natural law, and you can not fight against the law
of falling bodies, right?



Sam writes: I think "fetishism" is inaccurate. "Fetishism" is generally
defined as a form of "disorder", or "pathology", a problem (in humans) that
"deviates" from the "norm" (for humans).

But, it is not abnormal for humans to focus on limited ways of solving their
problems of human existence. In fact, is very normal. It is so normal that
has proven to be in the "nature" of humans, and therefore "human nature".

http://www.communitywiki.org/en/LiteracyOfHumanNature









So, how can you deal with this?

Don't tell illusions, be honest. But the point is: You can not convince
anybody simply by argueing. You have to prove your thesis practically.
Like Linus Torvalds did. Read the historical Tanenbaum-Torvalds debate.



The point that I was trying to make was that you can't even convince people
with example. You actually have to convince people with examples that *work
with* their current way of viewing the world. Linus Torvalds and the
millions of people working on F/LOSS software did this. They found a way to
weave together the existing capitalist systems with peer production systems.
This is what I am talking about. They found a way to build a bridge out of
purely capitalist systems that people can cross as far as they like (they
are not required to totally throw off capitalistic paradigms to
participate). They did this out of necessity.





(...)
So, why not instead *present* the change from the beginning in a way
that looks and feels like it conforms to their "way" but in fact
*helps them accept a transitional change* by helping to create the
conditions for change?

I feel that this is playing with people. You want to outsmart people. I
can't do this, it is not honest, it doesn't take people seroius.


Sam writes: You are misunderstanding what I am saying. I am not suggesting
playing with people, and have never done so myself. I am suggesting building
a real alternative that works within their systems, that can be "seen" as
valid at least to some degree from *their* worldview, as was done by F/LOSS
communities.

I do not suggest nor practice lying, nor being dishonest.




Tune your transmitter to their receiver, if you want to help them
change. There is no other way.

I don't want to "help" anybody change. Each person can change self or
not. This is not my responsibility. It is not truthful. It has nothing
to do with selbstentfaltung.



Yeah, and I am really not saying that it is your responsibility. I never
imagined that it was your responsibility.

The truth is that there are a lot of people who are held in place by the
lies of others, and one of the conditions that will need to break free from
the inertia of those lies is "solutions", new ways of solving their problems
of existence, which they can clearly. I see it as my responsibility to go
beyond just offering logical explanations, which indeed are needed to give
people "insight" into their condition, and also offer "solutions". And, I
see it as my responsibility to make those solutions work for as many people
as possible, whether they may see themselves as "anarchist", "marxist", or
"capitalist" (or any other "-ist").







Ciao,
Stefan

--
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-- 
Sam Rose
Social Synergy
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