[ox-en] Re: What is the mission?
- From: Stefan Meretz <stefan.meretz hbv.org>
- Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 00:14:57 +0200
On 2008-08-14 06:37, Samuel Rose wrote:
What you describe very clearly has a scientific term: fetishism. I
cannot explain and illustrate this better than you did. Capitalist
markets seems to be natural law, and you can not fight against the
law of falling bodies, right?
Sam writes: I think "fetishism" is inaccurate. "Fetishism" is
generally defined as a form of "disorder", or "pathology", a problem
(in humans) that "deviates" from the "norm" (for humans).
I don't mean individual pathology, fetishism is used here in a social
sense. It means, that the "norm" to behave (aka social relations) is
determined by a movement of things (the commodities in production and
circulation). Thus humans in capitalism follows rules of things like a
"fetish" -- and that _is_ the "norm" where nobody can deviate from
(including me and you).
It is so normal that has proven to be in the "nature" of humans, and
therefore "human nature".
Yes, it seems to be, but it is only the so called "second nature". It
seem to be so "natural", that scientists uncritically accept the
appearing surface and justify it as _the_ (first) "nature".
Don't tell illusions, be honest. But the point is: You can not
convince anybody simply by argueing. You have to prove your thesis
practically. Like Linus Torvalds did. Read the historical
Tanenbaum-Torvalds debate.
The point that I was trying to make was that you can't even convince
people with example. You actually have to convince people with
examples that *work with* their current way of viewing the world.
Yes.
Linus Torvalds and the millions of people working on F/LOSS software
did this. They found a way to weave together the existing capitalist
systems with peer production systems.
Nope. Because it can not be woven together. In order to see this, you
have to apply critical research and not just accepting how the people
are. And this is one mission of Oekonux: Not just accepting what seems
to be obvious, but analyze it critically. I don't need any doubling of
the appearing surface.
This is what I am talking
about. They found a way to build a bridge out of purely capitalist
systems that people can cross as far as they like (they are not
required to totally throw off capitalistic paradigms to participate).
Nobody is required to throw off any paradigm s/he had to do free
software, that is a good thing. But this does not mean, that free
software is a commodity, or gets exchanged, or has any economic value.
Free software is not a thing of value. This can be found out
analytically, but again it is not required to do free software.
They did this out of necessity.
Yes.
(...)
So, why not instead *present* the change from the beginning in a
way that looks and feels like it conforms to their "way" but in
fact *helps them accept a transitional change* by helping to
create the conditions for change?
I feel that this is playing with people. You want to outsmart
people. I can't do this, it is not honest, it doesn't take people
seroius.
Sam writes: You are misunderstanding what I am saying. I am not
suggesting playing with people, and have never done so myself. I am
suggesting building a real alternative that works within their
systems, that can be "seen" as valid at least to some degree from
*their* worldview, as was done by F/LOSS communities.
You don't need to do anything for "them". Don't treat "them" as objects.
I feel this is playing with people. Sorry to say so again.
I see it
as my responsibility to go beyond just offering logical explanations,
which indeed are needed to give people "insight" into their
condition, and also offer "solutions". And, I see it as my
responsibility to make those solutions work for as many people as
possible, whether they may see themselves as "anarchist", "marxist",
or "capitalist" (or any other "-ist").
Your responsibility is not for other people, it is only for you to think
about what are saying - here and anywhere. I don't mean this offensive.
Ciao,
Stefan
--
Start here: www.meretz.de
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