Message 05448 [Homepage] [Navigation]
Thread: oxenT05425 Message: 19/20 L5 [In index]
[First in Thread] [Last in Thread] [Date Next] [Date Prev]
[Next in Thread] [Prev in Thread] [Next Thread] [Prev Thread]

Re: [p2p-research] [ox-en] Marginalism - the religion

[Converted from multipart/alternative]

[1 text/plain]
This discussion is recurring ...

my point: while of course, immaterial goods have an underlying cost, which
could be borne by a socialized infrastructure,

the fact remains that the reproduction of immaterial goods is quite
different from the reproduction of immaterial goods

I don't know any of the proponents of a socialized internet infrastructure,
who lives in a dreamland that doesn't realize that these costs have to be
born somewhere

so, I'm wondering, why this recurring debate, what's the point?

do you Patrick, want to undo the largely socialized infrastructure, and have
people pay for every bit, rather than the workable solution we have today?

since your ownership scheme is not about to be implemented, what is the
point  you are trying to make?


On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 6:34 AM, marc fawzi <marc.fawzi> wrote:


How can an industrial engineer not understand the concept of friction?

If you marginalize friction, you end up coming to a screeching halt sooner
or later.

If the cost is small, it is not zero. If it's not zero it has to be paid
for somehow or else your model (or engine) runs aground.

There is no free lunch. Period.

You have to socialize the cost which you are thinking of as marginal, but
which is far greater than you seem to be able to accept.

You can scale the cost in your mind anyway you wish, from holistic cost all
the way down to marginal cost, and every scale in between but it is still
cost and if it's not paid for by someone or society as a whole, on equal
basis not ways that enforce scarcity and promote monopolies, then your
engine can go on running, but if you dismiss it as marginal you're engine
will run aground sooner or later.


On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:28 PM, Diego Saravia <diego.saravia>wrote:

This is a consequence of the particular pricing models used by ISPs in
certain countries. Here in the UK, many ISPs have (published or
unpublished) caps, e.g. 10GB or 15GB.

yes, in some places ISP tries to do that, they know that few users
consume a lot of more than other, for example dowloading video or
sharing connections, so they charge more to change that behaviour

but the point is not the price model of ISP, but the cost rationale of

once you set up the networks at certain capacity, their cost are almost

in fact several cell phone companies here are not charging more, but
slowing down you, if you move more than certain amount/month

Yes, these caps will be increased in future (if indeed the flat-rate
pricing model remains, which I think it will - it's very popular),

yes, there are tech reasons for that, not only a popularity stuff.

its the internet protocol way of doing things

the promise of moving bytes arround the world without thinking about
times and distances

the oposite of telephone system

What the pricing model means really, in my view, is that the marginal
costs to the ISP of supplying bandwidth are socialised among its
customers. And customers are mostly happy with this because they do not
want to continuously worry about how much they are using the internet
and how much it is costing them, which was the case under the old
pay-per-minute dialup model in the UK. I do not yet fully understand
why broadband billing has developed differently from telephone billing
in this regard,

bingo! thats the central point of what I am saying here, and about
internet economics

IP protocol is diferent, split time (packets) and not channels, so you
dont have limits, only time delay (to a certain amount)

another model is EUA local calls (the only cost was manual operator,
so they charge per call, not time)

my machine is always on

Your machine probably has the ability to save power by entering a
lower-power state when it is effectively "doing nothing". Downloading
isn't doing nothing because it needs a hard drive (usually). How much
the additional electricity costs, I don't know, but I would be
interested to find out.

that proporcionality factor is really small.

In fact my electrical bill have a lot off fixed costs, I dont care to
reduce consumption here. Thats crazy, I know. But that is my reality.
But if you have variable costs, the margina cost of transmission will
be very low when you put side by side with other costs.

Diego Saravia
Contact: projekt


Marc Fawzi

p2presearch mailing list

Working at - -

Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:  - -

Monitor updates at

The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,

[2 text/html]
Contact: projekt

Thread: oxenT05425 Message: 19/20 L5 [In index]
Message 05448 [Homepage] [Navigation]