Message 00863 [Homepage] [Navigation]
Thread: oxenT00855 Message: 8/10 L4 [In index]
[First in Thread] [Last in Thread] [Date Next] [Date Prev]
[Next in Thread] [Prev in Thread] [Next Thread] [Prev Thread]

Re: [ox-en] Re: Nationalism, protectionism and Free software advocacy, was: Re: [ox-en] Manifiesto para Lula (fwd)

Hi Chris,

Sounds like we have a really basic disagreement here, which we're not
going to get over. However, I'd like at least to split it up into parts.

1. Are laws requiring states to use open-source software (I know it's
my fault for saying 'free software' in this context, when really I should
have said 'open source') for administration, education, etc inherently
nationalist?

My answer would be 'no'.

2. Are those laws nationalist if one of the main motivations is financial
savings? 

My answer would be 'no' again. 

3. Are those laws nationalist if the saving which is made is of money 
which would otherwise be exported to another country?

My answer would be 'no' again.

In general I'd see this was one of the new possibilities opened up
by free software: in the past, globalisation (in the sense of a
harmonization of trading rules for the world, used to gain massive
economic benefits for the leading country(s) - the UK in the last century,
the US in this) could only be opposed economically by nationalism:
the refusal to allow specific imports, combined with attempts to create
(often inefficient) local replacement industries. An example would be
the Brazilian attempt to create a local computer manufacturing industry
in the 80s.
But now, free software allows a genuinely internationalist counter to
globalisation in the sense used above. It replaces the aspect of 
globalization which is simply a means of hoovering up profits for the
leading country(s)/multinationals with genuine co-operation across
borders, without reproducing the exploitation involved in globalization.

4. Is nationalism always bad?

We're definitely not going to agree on this one - I'd say it depends
what you mean by it, and what the specific case is. I think you'd just
say 'yes'. But I don't think this list is the place for that argument.


On Sun, 26 Jan 2003, Chris Croome wrote:


Hi

On Sat 25-Jan-2003 at 07:38:39PM -0500, Graham Seaman wrote:


Could you say more about why you feel it's a bad thing?


I don't think that nationalism is ever progressive, I don't think
that there is such a thing as 'good nationalism'. I feel exactly the
same way about religion. These are things that are endlessly
exploited by those in power in order to divide and rule.

How would you react to an argument that Linux should be adopted in
Latin America because it's a more Catholic OS than Windows which is
a Protestant OS?! Wouldn't you say this is a mad argument and that
Linux (and Windows) has no inherent religion or would this be an
acceptable bandwagon to jump on? (not that I think that you would,
just trying to make a point :-)


I don't see the parallel. I haven't seen any signs of people saying 'Linux
is better because it's Latin American'. There are people who feel that
localization is important, and that having a national Linux distribution
which is already localized is important, but I can't see any reason why
that is wrong either - localization is another of the important freedoms
that open source gives you that proprietary software doesn't (at least in
the sense that you're not dependent on the proprietor to decide if you can
have it or not).


It might appear to make the Linux vs Windows argument easier to win
-- pandering to nationalism -- but this is not something I'd do or
could support -- political concessions to nationalism are not IMHO a
good idea, _ever_. 

Thankfully the internationalist nature of the free software movement
appears to be a lot stronger that the nationalist spin that is being
used to advocate it's adoption by nation states.


My basic problem in all this is that I can't see any nationalism in the
quote I posted. The government has an ambitious, possibly unachievable,
but IMO admirable, campaign to end hunger/starvation (the portuguese word
is ambiguous). Using free software has already demonstrably saved them
money on a large scale (and the figures are available), which used to go
(mainly) to the US but which can now be used for this campaign. Why is
this nationalist? Because the US gets mentioned? 
 
Graham


Chris





_______________________
http://www.oekonux.org/
Thread: oxenT00855 Message: 8/10 L4 [In index]
Message 00863 [Homepage] [Navigation]