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[ox-en] Re: [p2p-research] [p2pf] Launch of P2P Research Group



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Samuel and Michel:

A slow death is still a death.  Why (further) enable something that isn't
working?  If it is working, where's the proof?  I don't want to toss the
baby with the bathwater, but all I see is the bathwater...or, it is like
tiny baby soup.

I appreciate it may seem iconoclastic in the extreme to talk about
dissolving large universities, but wasn't it so a short time ago for
institutions like Citigroup, Ford and United Airlines?  What have we gained
by prolonging the inevitable.  I am for the quick change...as Samuel and
Michel suggest for "portions" of the academy.  Lots of things are melting in
the heat of the current world, why would universities be so sacred as to be
exempt?  One must really love faux gothic buildings and feather crowned
crests to get too sentimental about it.  I know bankers who mourn the old
Wall Street.  Should we keep it up so that the Gentlemen's Clubs of London
and the steak houses of New York can keep their leather polished.  Either
one is or one isn't a progressive.  You can't teach students radical
transparency and service learning and then slink off to the privilege of
sabbaticals and top-heavy research grant factories.

Ryan Lanham



On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 9:18 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 gmail.com>wrote:

Hi Sam,

I really don't know how realistic your expectation is. How many uni's, with
their current culture and admin hierarchy, would survive such a transition?

Why not defend public universities and their funding, but also fight for
self-management? Within such a context, certain aspects of university life
could try out the commons route.

But outside of it, I fear it would be use much as the sustainability
concept, as an empty slogan used politically to enclose public education,

Michel


  On 4/20/09, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose gmail.com> wrote:

One of the problems here in the US is that public funding has largely
dried up for Universities, and so most of them have turned to larger
corporations for money. Related to this, some of them have also turned to
being in the "business" of securing grants (and often not doing much with
the grants other than absorbing them, and pressuring PI's to seek more
grants instead of allowing grantees to work to make those that grantees have
already received achieve their stated goals).

In the US, Universities are top-heavy when it comes to maximizing money.
They became very used to public subsidies, and grants, and created a rather
insatiable appetite for money. So, once that money stream has dried up, many
of them turned to restructuring themselves as businesses in order to just
sustain programs, building projects, etc. Perhaps it is the same in EU and
UK? I don't have direct experience, and so do not know for sure.

I think that given the larger environment, that it will be practically
impossible for many Universities in the US to avoid restructuring themselves
as businesses.

So, the question them becomes: what *kind* of "business" should a
University be?

There is a legitimate business model, that I call a "commons-based"
business model. This model is probably the best fit for Universities. Give
it away, making money. Steve Bosserman writes about it here:


http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/steve_bosserman/2008/02/09/giving_it_away_making_money.htm

I agree with Andreas that Universities should stay away from more
traditional business. Stay away from making their staff and students
available as low cost research outsource grunts. Basically, stay away from
seeing people and land as natural resources and labor to be capitalized
upon.

The cost of restructuring to take commons based business route is far less
than than the cost of scarcity based business , and commons based businesses
run with principles discussed by Elinor Ostrum in Governing the Commons
(design principles discussion) will outperform and outsustain scarcity based
businesses.



On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 8:29 AM, Wittel, Andreas <
andreas.wittel ntu.ac.uk> wrote:

Hi Ryan,

not sure if I understand your question. If you do think that universities
should not be businesses (as I do) why think about examples in history that
show a successful transformation from non-business to business models? Are
you indicating with your question that this change of unis to corporations
will ultimately fail?

The primary function of universities in one sentence? Perhaps to
contribute to the production and dissemination of knowledge? Obviously there
are other players emerging doing the same thing, collective intelligence
etc. So there is competition, whcih has to be a good thing.

I really dont think that p2p will wash away capitalism and all
institutions associated with it. I'd rather think of this in terms of
mergers. Any idea what universities would look like if they would go p2p
instead of business?

Andreas

________________________________

From: Ryan Lanham [rlanham1963 gmail.com]

Sent: Mon 20/04/2009 03:00
 To: Wittel, Andreas
Cc: Athina Karatzogianni; list-en oekonux.org; p2pf yahoogroups.com;
Peer-To-Peer Research List
Subject: Re: [p2p-research] [p2pf] Launch of P2P Research Group


Hi Andreas,

Here's a question...a sincere one, not a rhetorical one: Is there any
institution that has, in history, internally reformed satisfactorily by
adopting a business model when no such model existed from the outset?  I
think of New Public Management in government/public affairs as a minimally
successful (and still highly controversial) model.  I'm sure there are
numerous others.

Universities, like governments, are not businesses.  Businesses exist to
optimize their own survival and to control percentages of ecological
carrying capacities that enrich managers and shareholders.  Governments
exist to achieve stable advancement and protection of normative social
values.  Universities exist to....???

One can add many predicates.  What is disturbing is that one cannot think
of a defining predicate...particularly one that doesn't entail prestige and
identity enhancement...thinks seemingly at odds with sharing usable assets
optimally.

I contend p2p exists to simplify and optimize distribution of
resources...it replaces capitalism, institutions, socialism and several
other approaches that aimed to deal with distribution of resources.  p2p is
a form of economics that makes the money component of value subordinate to
efficient distribution with, through, or in spite of money.  Its ethos is
sharing usable assets without creating persons or entities unwilling to
share usable assets. It does this by minimizing overheads associated with
the delivery of sharing.

Universities were p2p 1.0.  Time to envision 2.0.  No need for the
institutional components.

Ryan Lanham




On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 5:27 PM, Wittel, Andreas <
andreas.wittel ntu.ac.uk> wrote:


       Basically I agree with this critique but would offer a twist. The
university as secret society model is rapidly vanishing and making space for
the university as business model. Where university knowledge formerly has
been hidden away, it is now opening up to all kinds of so called effiencies
such as auditing, quality control, usability, just in time delivery,
customer service and so on. Not sure what is worse.
       Andreas

       ________________________________

       From: Ryan Lanham [rlanham1963 gmail.com]
       Sent: Sun 19/04/2009 03:17
       To: Wittel, Andreas
       Cc: Athina Karatzogianni; list-en oekonux.org;
p2pf yahoogroups.com; Peer-To-Peer Research List

       Subject: Re: [p2p-research] [p2pf] Launch of P2P Research Group


       It seems to me that there are at least two ways institutions can
be judged successful:  First, they can be viewed as survivors in an ecology.
 To succeed, they need only continue.  The second way to success is in
serving some purpose well.

       Monolithic knowledge has few supporters these days.  So if one
opts for the second and more human purpose, there needs to be a mission
beyond "veritas".  Teaching does not seem to be the mission of most
institutions; it is a byproduct.  Few who study teaching find universities
to be particularly good at it, and teaching is rarely studied as a pursuit
in universities outside of the discipline of education.  Boosting people
into competencies is a plausible mission, but even there, universities are
hardly efficient or effective.

       I think universities had two symbiotic purposes--one to imbue
students with associative identity and institutional prestige--with a
byproduct of some learning, and the second, more elemental mission was to
earn that prestige through "scholarship."

       So the real question of the worth or failure of universities comes
back, it seems to me, to the meaning of scholarship.  P2P modes exist
(spontaneously?) for efficiencies of minimalizing institutional
burdens--bureaucracy, identity, prestige, norms, hierachies, etc.

       My condemnation of universities is in finding their definitions of
scholarship to be (too often) solipsistic, removed from relevance and, more
generally, exclusive.  They failed by hiding their product from
transparency.  Instead, they chose to form guilds and to perfect trade
secrets, normative rituals, and to act more like secret societies than
service entities.

       Regardless, knowledge is useful and universities contribute almost
in spite of themselves.  Learned individuals do the right things--perhaps as
Athina is doing--just because they embody the very desires for meaning,
value and efficiency that are at the heart of the p2p ethos.  In a sense,
p2p success at universities requires fighting the conventional institutional
overhead

       When the two blend, the academy washes out the authenticity of p2p
through institutional machinery that simply can't be abandoned by most.
 People need the church acoutrements that Marc suggests exist.  p2p is thus
potentially lost in the very mechanics it innocently undermines.  Like water
against a shore, it will bounce back and meld in because its dissolving
power is very microscopic--at the level of the person...it is not aggregated
to the perspective of people who view the world from institutional eyes...as
land and sea.  But sometimes there are storms and rapid shifts, to extend a
metaphor way too far!

       Ryan Lanham




       On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 5:38 PM, Wittel, Andreas <
andreas.wittel ntu.ac.uk> wrote:


              This is a interesting question.

              As I have hosted the workshop in Nottingham, I 'd like to
share my experience with Nottingham Trend Uni. I asked the IT people to set
up a wiki and was told that this is not possible as NTU wanted control over
content. Obviously the result was a dead web site, suitable for information
around the time of the conference, and dead later.

              I would suspect that most unis have this policy. Should
Hull be more open, and open to a wiki, and willing to fund the site, then I
would welcome this and take advantage of it. However if Hull has (1) similar
concerns about wikis as NTU, and (2) does not fund a non-Hull website for
the research group, I would follow Ryan's suggestion to set up the p2p
research group without uni affiliation.

              Basically we dont need uni support to set up a research
group. But we do need uni support (in terms of funding) to meet for
conferences and workshops.

              One more thing. Ryan said ealier.


              On the other hand, lists of  "researchers" meaning people
at academic institutions who write papers for journals seems a failed model


              As much as my academic heart agrees with this due to all
kinds of frustrations in this world, I find this a dangerous statement as it
puts universities in the realm of history. Are you really suggesting we dont
need unis any more? How about newspapers? Art? Literature? Sould all this
(which is under serious threat atm) be allowed to be swept away for
non-insitituational knowledge work to succeed?

              For those interested in the relevance of history in the
information age I'd recommend Alan Liu (2004), The Laws of Cool.

              Andreas

              ________________________________

              From: p2presearch-bounces listcultures.org on behalf of
Ryan Lanham
              Sent: Sat 18/04/2009 20:23
              To: Athina Karatzogianni
              Cc: list-en oekonux.org; p2pf yahoogroups.com;
Peer-To-Peer Research List
              Subject: Re: [p2p-research] [p2pf] Launch of P2P Research
Group



              Thanks, Athina.  I will do what you say.

               I should note, in the interest of open disclosure, that I
have been an employee of Harvard, Northwestern and Virginia Tech
universities.  It would be disingenuous for me to ride too a horse about
 higher ed.




              There is a new effort going on now concerning a charter for
best practices in community engagement that may serve as a suitable base; I
will post a link in the next couple of days since I am not as good as Michel
at building stockpiles on de.licio.us <http://de.licio.us/>  <
http://de.licio.us/>  <http://de.licio.us/> .



              Anyone else who wishes to offer a collaborative foundation,
method, or tools besides a wiki should gather their thoughts and speak out
as time goes forward.

              I continue to applaud and welcome the general concept and
can imagine the risks and frustrations associated with moving forward.

              Ryan Lanham




              On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 2:02 PM, Athina Karatzogianni <
athina.k gmail.com> wrote:


                     Hi Ryan

                     I am all for what you propose, please take the
initiative.

                     I would also like to add here if I may, in response
one of your previous emails, the fact that i happen to be an academic and
hull is interested in supporting this effort (i have kept  chasing them
around for the past 2 years!) is somehow causing political concern in terms
of excluding non academics and other more serious ideological issues, which
I recognize as valid.

                     Nevertheless, it feels a constant barrier having to
defend any sort of effort of volunteering my time. Those that know me
personally and my work more generally will know were my political loyalties
have been and will continue to be. They are not with institutions and
certainly not with hierarchies.

                     Please take the lead in this, and whoever else wants
to take initiatives they are here to be taken. I am not excluding anyone and
neither does what happens to be my current affiliation. In a way I am trying
to say that this is a research group for p2p researchers, how can it have
different logic and how it can exclude anyone? I have taken it for granted
that it has a peer logic. Doing charters and discussing governance perhaps
someone like you can the the lead in. All I trying to do is set up, host
everyone for a first time in hull to discuss all these issues and create
some sort of governance structure for the group when we meet face to face
and get some funding going.

                     Cheers

                     Athina


                     On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Ryan Lanham <
rlanham1963 gmail.com> wrote:


                             Hi Michel,

                             Thanks.  A constitution isn't a bad idea,
but rather than one drafter, I'll look for a starting point that is more
collaborative and perhaps an open section of the wiki could be used to
gather broad inpur.  I'd be happy to shepherd and encourage that process.

                             Perhaps others with interests in open and
collaborative governance could take significant roles in editing.


                             Ryan Lanham
                             rlanham1963 gmail.com

                             Facebook: Ryan_Lanham




                             On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 1:13 AM, Michel
Bauwens <michelsub2004 gmail.com> wrote:


                                     Hi Ryan,

                                     I don't think any social or
political change project can bypass altogether all institutions, it needs to
work both within and without. This being said, while aiming for funding
obviously demands playing by some rules, I think that for all participants
who believe in the P2P ethos, no research project can or should be exclusive
to academic researchers. In my view, the new group should also be able to
assist non-academic researchers.

                                     Perhaps, we could write a manifesto
of sorts, that would serve as the 'constitution' of the group, which would
specific this,

                                     Would you be interested in taking
the lead in writing this?

                                     Michel


                                     On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 5:37 AM,
Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 gmail.com> wrote:




                                             I applaud this initiative
and bravo to those offering the funding.  On the other hand, lists of
 "researchers" meaning people at academic institutions who write papers for
journals seems a failed model that is less in need of reinforcement than
rejection.

                                             Research in an academic
sense is not p2p, hasn't been, and never will be.  I would not exclude it, I
just would feed it by giving it additional free assets of prestige and focus
without their earning those resources in open (truly open) communities.

                                             Ryan Lanham





                                             On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 5:09
AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 gmail.com> wrote:




                                                     I´m extremely happy
to announce this initiative, which will enable people interested in p2p
dynamics to more easily appeal for research funding.

                                                     B  elow is a short
announcement from Athina Karatzogianni, please ask for the document that she
is referring to in her email listed below. If you are involved with
research, academic or not, please let us know and do forward this message to
other networks.

                                                     If you have no
access to the attached document, please request one from Athina via email



                                                     Michel Bauwens




                                                     Text:


                                                     "The P2P Foundation
<http://p2pfoundation.net/>  in collaboration with the University of
Hull <http://www.hull.ac.uk/> are creating a P2PResearch Group (P2PRG)
with a physical base in Hull, in order to initiate a material equivalent to
the various virtual networks we are all part of. Some of the goals of the
group are to attract funding to improve already existent infrastructures,
create more material and immaterial networks and hubs and capture funding
for research, conferences and workshops. A conference scheduled for November
will also produce a direct and transparent steering committee to oversee the
various activities of the group. Therefore, it would be particularly
helpful, if everyone, who is interested in participating, fills as much
information as they can, in the document attached, and email it to Athina <
http://www.hull.ac.uk/humanities/media_studies/staff/athina_karatzogianni/>
 at athina.k gmail.com"


                                                     see and forward doc
attached (please edit doc michel as you see fit)

                                                     athina



                                                     --
                                                     Dr Athina
Karatzogianni
                                                     Lecturer in Media,
Culture and Society
                                                     The Dean's
Representative (Chinese Partnerships)
                                                     Faculty of Arts and
Social Sciences
                                                     The University of
Hull
                                                     United Kingdom
                                                     HU6 7RX
                                                     T: ++44 (0) 1482 46
5790
                                                     F: ++44 (0) 1482
466107

http://www.hull.ac.uk/humanities/media_studies/staff/athina_karatzogianni/







                                                     --
                                                     Dr Athina
Karatzogianni
                                                     Lecturer in Media,
Culture and Society
                                                     The Dean's
Representative (Chinese Partnerships)
                                                     Faculty of Arts and
Social Sciences
                                                     The University of
Hull
                                                     United Kingdom
                                                     HU6 7RX
                                                     T: ++44 (0) 1482 46
5790
                                                     F: ++44 (0) 1482
466107

http://www.hull.ac.uk/humanities/media_studies/staff/athina_karatzogianni/






                                                     --
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
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P2P Foundation:




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                                                     Monitor updates at
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                                     Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:



                                     http://p2pfoundation.net <
http://p2pfoundation.net/>  <http://p2pfoundation.net/>  <
http://p2pfoundation.net/>   - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net <
http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/>  <http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/>  <
http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/>  - http://p2pfoundation.ning.com <
http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/>  <http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/>  <
http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/>



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                     --
                     Dr Athina Karatzogianni
                     Lecturer in Media, Culture and Society
                     The Dean's Representative (Chinese Partnerships)
                     Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
                     The University of Hull
                     United Kingdom
                     HU6 7RX
                     T: ++44 (0) 1482 46 5790
                     F: ++44 (0) 1482 466107

http://www.hull.ac.uk/humanities/media_studies/staff/athina_karatzogianni/








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"Long ago, we brought you all this fire.
Do not imagine we are still chained to that rock...."

http://notanemployee.net/

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--
Working at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
http://www.dpu.ac.th/dpuic/info/Research.html -
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

Volunteering at the P2P Foundation:
http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net -
http://p2pfoundation.ning.com


Monitor updates at http://del.icio.us/mbauwens

The work of the P2P Foundation is supported by SHIFTN,
http://www.shiftn.com/

_______________________________________________
p2presearch mailing list
p2presearch listcultures.org
http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org




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