Re: [ox-en] Re: The nature of apple trees
- From: Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 gmail.com>
- Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 15:17:02 +0700
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On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 5:05 PM, Stefan Merten <smerten oekonux.de> wrote:
Hi Michel and all!
2 days ago Michel Bauwens wrote:
On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 12:41 AM, Stefan Merten <smerten oekonux.de>
wrote:
Michel: Well, may be I'm writing Chinese but from your answer you
seemingly did not get my point. Please let me try to make
things clearer step by step.
In short: A system of small innocent ingredients can develop
an own logic. This logic can be stronger than any human
intervention - regardless how well-meaning you are.
agreed, this is why changing monetary protocols is so important, I'm so
glad
you understand that!!
There is a misunderstanding here: Changing monetary protocols is
exactly the (pointless) human intervention I was talking of.
you don't understand it for money, but your paragraph shows you understand
the general process of why changing protocols and design rules matter; it's
just you dont' want to apply this understanding to money, which is your
prerogative
*But* there is hope here :-) :
Is this acceptable to you?
Exchange based systems in the given historical circumstances
are one example of such systems.
Is this acceptable to you?
yes
If you agree to this then we would "only" need to clarify what is part
of the constant logic and what can be changed by human means. (Though
I'm a bit tired of this discussion. I'm discussing this for nearly 15
years now and there is a point when you just have enough...)
In addition: To recognize the interrelation of small innocent
ingredients and to recognize how they build a powerful system
can well be a scientific endeavor and your all-day
consciousness might not be helpful here. Systems like that
*are* powerful because they are in a way self-organizing.
agreed
This is also an important point. Using scientific standards also means
that you need to take previous knowledge into account. I'm not saying
you need to swallow everything - certainly not. But you have to
consider what others did before.
This is what IMHO is lacking most in this discussion. When I see all
these people inventing just another exchange based system from scratch
I wonder whether they really studied the available sources.
Complementary currencies have been counter-cyclical in the past, with high
growth in the depression, then disappearance, and reappearance since the
70's I think. But from then on, rather constant but slow growth, but no
real scaling of rather small local currency and LETS projects; so it's
rather the number of initiatives that has been growing, but each one limited
to a few thousand participants; a few, like bershares or ithaca time dollars
seem to be more substantial; for larger business participation, success has
been very limited outside the WIR and the JAK bank.
however, since 2-3 years I think, but especially now, the number of
initiatives is again exponentially increasing
what is new I think, not yet fully appreciated, is how free software and the
internett lowers the treshold for the social production of money, allows the
the interlocking of many diverse currency projects in a metacurrency
platform that will be operable.
it is this I think that is the game changer and represents a non-linear
potentiality for open money; another very important factor is that apart
from certain post-Marxist holdouts, the cultural acceptance for the
value-sensitive design of monetary protocols has been rapidly increasing.
This is not something that the scepticism of a few Oekonuxers is going to
stop, independent of the validity of your critique.
I was referring to money specifically, not to capitalism as such,
attempts
to coercively do away with money have not worked, as was the case in the
Soviet Union and other places; this is the argument put forward, based on
historical evidence, by raoul victor at oekonux 4
I don't think it makes much sense to talk about money as such. It has
to be considered in the historical context. A society where money is
used for minor trade is completely different from a society where all
of life is dominated by money. In short: The mode of production has to
be considered.
that is what I've been saying all along!!
What peer production shows is that in this mode of production we don't
need structural force any longer to make people produce useful things.
That is the way to enhance, build upon and speed up IMHO.
but we don't know yet how to make it sustainable outside of its reliance on
the current system; peer-informed exchange modes will be substantial
elements in making peer production sustainable for individuals
the direct social production of money is the peer production of money, in
a
way; while not the same as peer production, it is related as part of the
broad transformation towards the direct social production of value
through
the social sphere
I have no idea what you mean by value. Unless I have a better
explanation I'll understand the weight of a product ;-) .
Though value cannot really be defined, see David Graeber's long study on the
meaning of value, I mean it close to your own post-marxist understanding of
use and exchange value.
Well, it can damage peer production for instance if
scarcity needs to be improved for the sake to uphold the exchange
system...
In any case: Peer production is what Oekonux is about. More and more
this seems to me like the big difference between P2P Foundation and
Oekonux: P2P Foundation does not limit itself to peer production but
includes lots of other, basically unrelated topics.
yes, indeed, the P2P Foundation takes a broader view of social change;
BUT,
the different distributed infrastructues, and the direct social
production
of open money systems are definitely related to the p2p paradigm;
It would help me enormously if you could give a few definitions. For
instance I have no idea what you mean by "p2p". I just reiterated the
standard definition and unless I know what you mean I'll understand
this.
It's an onion thing.
1) Peer production in the most pure sense, as the 3-fold open-free input,
participatory process, commons output;
2) it's insertion in pre-exisiting modes to form all kinds of hybrid forms,
such as corporate open source commons; in such cases, only 1 or 2 aspects
can be present
3) all kinds if distributed infrastructures which enable peer to peer
dynamics to occur in terms of free self-aggregation and the common
production of value; for example, social lending has p2p aspects in that
sense, since we can lend to each other directly without middlemen; in open
money systems, the value tokens are not issued by a central authority, but
by the value-creators themselves, and this is a p2p dynamic; the same for
credit commons approaches; if people can acquire their own solar panels at
home, and share or exchange surpluses, that is also a p2p dynamic for energy
production
4) historically, as a new mode becomes dominant, it influences all other
modes that continue to exist; for examle, social enterpreneurship uses the
corporate form, but for social, partnership goals; fair trade uses trade,
but in a partnership mode with the producers (however imperfectly this can
be done, see the recent critique in the new statesman); for this trend, I
use the moniker 'peer-informed', to distinguish from true and pure p2p
dynamics
I don't believe that in the social world, we can use terms purely
scientically, since reality is often hybrid; but we can make key
distinctions and be aware of the differences
Michel
Striving for a scientific mode of work this is indispensable and it
saves us and others from a lot of misunderstandings.
MORE LATER,
Looking forward to it. I really hope we can sort this out this time
and find a modus of vivendi regarding this topic.
Maybe we won't reach it, if you mean the money thing, but hopefully we
educate ourselves and others
Michel
Grüße
Stefan
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_________________________________
Web-Site: http://www.oekonux.org/
Organization: http://www.oekonux.de/projekt/
Contact: projekt oekonux.de