Re: [ox-en] Nazi in Debian Alert
- From: Paul Bowman <helvetius ntlworld.com>
- Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 01:33:50 +0000
Niall Douglas wrote:
Hmm, let me see... Why would a Nazi wish to do harm to innocent people
based purely on the basis of their skin colour or ethnic origin?
I've been watching this thread for some time and it concerns me.
1. Why are you assuming that just because he's a nazi he would
readily leak personal information more than any other person?
Jeez, you ask the really tough ones, don't you? See below on ad ignorantium.
2. There is no evidence that he has used his position within that
project to promulgate his views or compromise anyone or anything.
Too many court-room dramas mate. I am merely attempting to show
solidarity with folk who might, if they remained uniformed, find their
personal security compromised through no fault of their own. I am not
the DA, stop auditioning for L.A. Law please. Also see
http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html for definition of
"Argumentum ad ignorantiam". Think of it less as a court-room drama and
more as a work-place* health and safety issue and you'll get there.
You appear to be engaging in a witch-hunt to have this person thrown
off the project because of his political views.
Straw man. With a bit of ad populum also (everybody hates witch-hunts,
including me, I've been subjected to so many that I'm not used to them,
I'm bored of them and I agree with the Situationists on the nature of
However let's be
clear - his are FAILED views, ones which won't ever return in a form
we would recognise them in.
"Was darf nicht sein, kann nicht sein" as Primo Levi explained...(see
'The Drowned & The Saved' - do yourself a favour)
I disagree with the American view that
everyone is entitled to promulgate their views ie; free speech -
fascism is dangerous because we know its inevitable outcome and
people must not be allowed to entice others into believing such silly
ideas. So he shouldn't be allowed to persuade others and most
European law backs this.
Agreed. What's more, I believe even the US has laws against libel and
slander as well (of entire "racial" and "ethnic" groups rather than
individuals, that is. I've never seen any nazi or racist propaganda that
didn't fall under these categories). Also I suspect the english crimes
of "incitement to racial hatred" and "incitement to violence" have
similar analogues in most OECD legal systems.
However, his right to *hold* any views he likes I cannot argue
against. He's entitled to believe the moon is god just as much as
some daft ideas about racial purity in Europe of all places.
Like my old mate Lorenzo Kom'boa Ervin says: "Folk who don't like me
'cause I'm black? So what? I don't like them either if that's their
attitude. That's not my problem. Man to man I can deal with people that
want to try fucking with me. My problem is the police and the state and
the capitalist system that try and prevent me defending myself and my
community against racists while giving them the freedom to get away with
murder. That's when it's not the state itself that's fucking with me.
That's my problem."
Or to put it another way. Practice is the final test of theory, it's the
_practice_ of racism and fascism that we anti-fascists fight, not the
inane garbage that passes for "theory" amongst these fuckwits. It's not
their freedom of speech we want to take away, but their freedom to
organise, agitate and propagandize given that their aim is to take away
the freedom of speech and life of their fellow human beings.
I have talked at length with some nazis and while I strongly disagree
with their views, generally they have integrity in their own weird
way. They are not inherently evil, just severely mistaken.
Face to face? Or via the relative safety of mediated communication (e.g.
the net). No-one ever got their teeth kicked in on the internet, its
true. You can't pour petrol through an electronic letterbox.
We should spend more time convincing them of the error of their ways
than hysterically witch-hunting them.
Ad hominem. and 80s feminists would have said sexist as well. What does
"hysterical" mean when it's at home? Also you're being hopelessly naive.
Go to Dachau, do not pass go, do not collect $200.
I would urge you to bear this mind in your future actions. Remember
also that you keep your friends close and your enemies even closer.
Absolutely. The fact my enemies want me dead reassures me that I'm doing
a good job. In fact I've actually "known" many of my enemies longer than
most of my friends (I've been fighting fascists in Leeds for 18 years.
Friendly hint: You've a bit of catching up to do before you can
patronise me on this subject without ending up looking rather foolish)
* In the "social factory", that is