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Re: [ox-en] Nazi in Debian Alert

On 24 Jan 2004 at 1:33, Paul Bowman wrote:

Hmm, let me see... Why would a Nazi wish to do harm to innocent people
based purely on the basis of their skin colour or ethnic origin?

The modern neo-nazi worldview is very similar to the modern racist
worldview though in Nazi Germany they were quite different. Nazis of
the 30/40's wouldn't have called themselves racists like the KKK in
the US at that time nor I think could anyone have drawn more than
some similarity.

You seem to be suffering from the simplistic view that all fascists,
racists and neo-nazis are the same and think the same. They do not.
They are as diverse, stratified and disagree with each other as much
as any other group of humans.

Or to put it another way. Practice is the final test of theory, it's
the _practice_ of racism and fascism that we anti-fascists fight, not
the inane garbage that passes for "theory" amongst these fuckwits.
It's not their freedom of speech we want to take away, but their
freedom to organise, agitate and propagandize given that their aim is
to take away the freedom of speech and life of their fellow human

You have a very extreme viewpoint. Racists take the view that there
is a superior race which by virtue of being superior, is entitled to
rule. They place a lot of importance on individualism because that's
how the very best men can be allowed to shine without the drudge
holding them back. This is where Nazism and racism meet, they both
draw strongly from Nietschze (sp?) who formalised that worldview.

Racists tend to live a "leave me alone" view. If they don't feel
oppressed by the hoards of inferior races pressing upon them and
holding them down, they would not feel the need to take some sort of
action. Therefore if each race were in its "homeland" and not in "our
homeland" very few racists would feel a need to attack inferior races
if they stay in their homeland and away from theirs.

Nazis are quite different here, or at least they were. The purpose of
the weak is to be subjugated to the strong so that they may be even

I have talked at length with some nazis and while I strongly disagree
with their views, generally they have integrity in their own weird
way. They are not inherently evil, just severely mistaken.

Face to face? Or via the relative safety of mediated communication
(e.g. the net). No-one ever got their teeth kicked in on the internet,
its true. You can't pour petrol through an electronic letterbox.

Of course face to face. I have sat surrounded by swastica (sp?) flags
and treasured dinner plates from the third reich - indeed I even held
those plates in my hands wearing special cloth gloves. I have always
found them very willing to discuss their views because they view
talking to someone like me as a good test of their faith and I must
admit, they tend to be very knowledgeable of what they believe in.

In case you're about to call me a closet Nazi, I have also sat (pre
2001) in rooms with militant Muslims who were at universities in the
UK doing bioengineering and such subjects. They were avowed to
destroy the west, kill as many Americans and British as possible. We
read the Koran together and they explained precisely why and how
Islam must free itself from the yoke of Western imperialism. Again,
they viewed talked to me as a good test of faith and again, they were
very knowledgeable of what they believe in.

(NOTE: I am NOT likening Nazis and militant Muslims - I *am* saying
that anyone dedicated to a cause they really believe in is very
interesting to talk to).

I could continue here - groups of Rastafari, Irish Republicans etc.
but you get the point - I have first-hand knowledge of many of these
minority groups.

We should spend more time convincing them of the error of their ways
than hysterically witch-hunting them.

Ad hominem. and 80s feminists would have said sexist as well. What
does "hysterical" mean when it's at home? Also you're being hopelessly
naive. Go to Dachau, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

I am afraid that it is you who is being naïve. I understand that you
feel you are in danger and being in Leeds, a place I have spent much
time in, you are probably partially right. However do not confuse a
realistic local danger with some abstract one on the internet - there
is no massive global nazi conspiracy out to get you and believe it or
not, western culture has grown out of nazism. It will not return.

I would urge you to bear this mind in your future actions. Remember
also that you keep your friends close and your enemies even closer.

Absolutely. The fact my enemies want me dead reassures me that I'm
doing a good job. In fact I've actually "known" many of my enemies
longer than most of my friends (I've been fighting fascists in Leeds
for 18 years. Friendly hint: You've a bit of catching up to do before
you can patronise me on this subject without ending up looking rather

I have also known many people like you from when I lived in Hull. You
have the right intentions but if you have read Animal Farm by Orwell,
you will know that intolerence always leads to the same bad place.
Your intolerance of other people's political views is as dangerous as
their intolerance of yours. Intolerance is the evil at the root of
this malaise and it's how we'll identify the next ideological threat
to mankind.

(Consider here how the current US administration behaves, and how
with just a little more pushing eg; one or two more major terrorist
attacks - the US population could go where Germany's went after the
Reichstag fire. And they have the capability of destroying the planet
several times over).



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