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Importance of price (was: Re: [ox-en] Slides for Lancaster)



Hi Stefan, Yuwei, all!

First of all: These are slides for a presentation of 3/4h. The Oekonux
introduction part is planned for 20-25 minutes.

I don't know whether you ever created a set of slides for such a
complex topic in such a short time. As far as I can see you have
exactly two options: Tell a detailed story about a very small aspect
or tell a lot more but stay at the surface.

For Oekonux as being a topic people have nothing to connect to in
their minds in the first case the audience will not understand
anything Or what you talk about is boring and little Oekonuxy.

In the second case you'll of course loose a great deal of details -
but people might get the big picture and might get interested in
digging further and discovering more details.

True: In the first case you save your virginity because you are
absolutely sure you said nothing wrong. However, IMHO a presentation
exists to tell a story which might interest people. In fact anybody
who expects a speaker to tell all the details in half an hour is a
fool. And then: What a boring topic this must be when all the details
*can* be told in half an hour any way...

Well, I'll stop the rant here ;-) . For more details you may check the
introduction where these questions are answered in more detail -
though not in the depth a book for instance could.

3 days ago Stefan Seefeld wrote:
Stefan Merten wrote:
Hi!

I finalized a version of slides for the KLab9 event in Lancaster. I
and Raoul would appreciate useful comments.

Since you ask...:

Unfortunately you - as others - did say nothing about the really
interesting and partially new thoughts about the relationship between
Free Software and art :-( .

* The actual product is gratis

  However: Price plays a role, but is not crucial

Given how confused most people still are about this
free-as-in-speech-vs.-free-as-in-beer ambiguity, I find the above point
not very helpful. What is "the product",

As long as we talk about Free Software there is a very easy answer:
the Free Software. I.e. the deliverables which are installed on my,
your, Yuwei's, ... computer. No doubt.

And Free Software is certainly a product because it is not given to us
by nature - instead it is produced by someone. Again no doubt.

Really: I can not see what your question is here.

and what is gratis about it ?

It is gratis when I can obtain it without paying money. Meanwhile this
is even literally true because I got a DSL flat rate so internet
connection meanwhile is part of the general preconditions of life.
Indeed for the Kubuntu I installed lately I paid exactly nothing.
Stop! I payed for one CD-R as a boot CD. But that's it.

For me this is gratis. No doubt.

It may have been best to skip this point, or simply stating that the issue
is in fact about freedom, not price.

That is the FSF ideology coined by RMS. This ideology is based on a
left-liberal, US-centric mind set. This ideology is important to sell
Free Software to the US (intellectual) mainstream where these concepts
are important parts of the general weltanschauung.

However, the Oekonux perspective - and I say perspective instead of
ideology on purpose - is different. On purpose because Oekonux is not
selling something - even not Free Software. More important than the
freedom as spelled out by the US left-liberal mind set is an analysis
of capitalism. And if you analyze capitalism you can not ignore money
/ labor - simply because these are the things capitalism is based on.

And from this perspective it is of utmost importance that Free
Software has no price. And though non-existing Free Software may have
a price existing and published Free Software regularly has none. This
is of utmost importance because it is an important hint that the mode
of production works *beyond* the logic of money / labor - which is one
of the central messages of Oekonux.

2 days ago Yuwei Lin wrote:
I think it is time to give the audience the 'correct' perception that free
software does not mean 'gratis'

A simple question: What was not gratis when I downloaded Kubuntu
recently? Can you try to classify the Free Software which is not
gratis? Isn't it exactly the Free Software which does not exist, no
Doubly Free developer sees enough need for but someone is ready to pay
for?

and people should not expect free labour

Well, people expect unpaid labor all the time - and receive it. Your
reply to my mail is unpaid labor - at least I did't pay. Thanks for
this :-) .

and gifts.

Certainly not - we discussed this here and there is a nice slide about
gifts in the introduction
[http://en.wiki.oekonux.org/Oekonux/Introduction/SlideGermFormNoGift].

There are many free software developers making a living on
developing free software or providing relevant service,

True. But please allow me this comparison: When I think of cars I can
see lots of services around cars. Garages - which you pay for a repair
job, streets - which you pay by your taxes, gas - which you pay when
you fill it into your car. So far this is very similar to Free
Software indeed.

*But*: So far I never found someone providing a gratis car the same
way I get my gratis Kubuntu. I agree with you that the cars and Free
Software are identical economies at the very moment you can show me
where I and all who want to can get themselves a gratis car.

What I'm trying to emphasize: There *are* major differences. I know
that people from the Open Source Initiative and others are trying to
hide these differences to get accepted by the mainstream - and I don't
mind this because it certainly helped Free Software a lot. *But* if
you are trying to analyze Free Software as a phenomenon pointing
*beyond* what is believed by the mainstream you need to check out
these ideologies carefully and evade them.

and this should be
emphasised in order to promote an economy of free software.

In Oekonux an economy of Free Software is one which works without
money - but this goes without saying ;-) .

3 days ago Stefan Seefeld wrote:
Mode of production of Free Software
-----------------------------------

Is there *a* mode of production, really ?
(I think the answer to this is a clear and unambiguous "No !")

Again you are getting lost in the details. I'd say that on a useful(!)
level of abstractions there may be three or - to be generous - less
than ten modes of production in the whole history of mankind. "Mode of
production" is a technical term in political economy - may be coined
by Marx.

   This is a very important characteristic

   In the workshop: How can this be compared to the mode of production
   of art?

The same applies to art, of course.

That is something I do know too little about. May be you can help me
out.

* Without money

  Developers finance themselves by other means

There certainly are developers for which this is true. But
whether this is a significant portion of all Free Software
developers is a subject worth studying. (And this definitely
has changed over the years.)

I agree with this point. However, even the right question here is
difficult to pose to begin with.

Please, *please*, don't over-simplify this highly interesting
topic. That doesn't serve anybody.

See my small rant above.

For more details, arguments and interesting points this list is
perfectly suited. Please note that I think this list is the right
place for details, that they are necessary and helpful and we don't
need to agree on every point - but not half an hour of presentation to
an expectable unprepared audience.

But now I really need to go to bed...


						Grüße

						Stefan

_________________________________
Web-Site: http://www.oekonux.org/
Organization: http://www.oekonux.de/projekt/
Contact: projekt oekonux.de



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