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Re: [ox-en] extrinsic motivation = coercion

On 2009-04-30 13:06, Diego Saravia wrote:
Yes, that is goal: replacement of extrinsic with intrinsic

I think this idea, that people do not need "to work"* for live is
unrelated to money.

The fact, that people are coerced to work, is directly related to
money today, because primitive subsistance is no longer possible
any more. You only can make a living via money.

okey, now coercion is exercised via money

but between primitivism and money and beyond you have huge horizonts

and money is not the reasson for coercion, is only a mechanism

the logic of coercion is far more profound than money

True, but due to simplification I use "money" as a symbol. Behind money 
there is exchange _value_, which does only exist, because we do not 
produce societally, but isolated. Isolated producers have to exchange 
their products, societal producers do not.

If exchange is necessary due to isolated production, then value is the 
objective measure for the exchange relation, and money is a special 
means to represent this value.

Thus talking about value in the sense of objective value is more correct 
then talking about money. But value, on the other hand, is more 
confusing, because it is widely used in a completely different manner as 
_subjective_ value. Subjective value is what we feel something is worth. 
Objective value is a form of societal mediation when you have isolated 
producers (via exchange, commodity, money).

was not discovery by marx, nor adam smith, its "biblical"

we were expulsed from paradise and coerced to work

Not true. This is one of the big myths of our times. We as humans do not 
need to work. This sounds weird, but a proof is simple. Just look at our 
daily live. Say you have an 8-hour-job. Then during one third of the 
(week) day, you "work" and produce something useful (hopefully). During 
two third of the day, you don't "work", but you do other things, most of 
them are useful too: Relaxing, child caring, communicating, writing on 
ox-list, making history or anything else. Without these things you are 
doing -- simply because you live your life -- society would not exist. 
These _are_ necessary activities, but they are not "work"!

"Work" in sense we all know does only exist, because a lot of means we 
need for our living are only available via money. And they are only 
available via money (which coerces us to "work"), because production is 
organized in the silly isolated way described above.

Thus the challenge is to free the one third (or less) of the day from 
"work" by finding ways to produce societally from the beginning on, and 
not to produce isolated making is necessary to use a stupid ex-post 
mechanisms like exchange, money and so on.

Peer production lays on that road.

money is only a mechanism for enhacing exchange, not a
fundamental fact about human nature

True, but it has become a secondary nature in a market society like
capitalism: Everybody has to follow.

exchange is a natural consecuence of surpluss,

Not true (and a contradiction to our sentence above).


Because humankind always produced a surplus (=more than they need for 
immediate survival). If we do this in a ex-ante pre-communicated way, 
and not in a isolated way capitalism does, then no ex-post mechanisms 
like exchange or money-usage are necessary.

Thus there is no "natural" consequence which you correctly stated above 
(money has nothing to do with human nature). -- Ok, I put exchange and 
money together, because I am only looking at present.

And don't forget, that the silly ex-post money-based overhead is the 
real unnecessary activity of the society: Money is basically a useless 
thing, you can't eat it. It is estimated that getting rid of this 
overhead gives us back on third of useless societal activities arranged 
around money.

And don't forget, that without money and other ex-post mechanisms, thus 
without "work", there would be no "unemployment", because there is no 
"employment". All people could do useful things they want, because they 
are not stopped to do so. -- What a rich world this would be!

Surplus product
and exchange is generally unrelated. Exchange is one type of
societal mediation, but not the only one.

are you speaking about:  ?

I don't know this text, but thanks for the link.

grow, work, etc are geneticaly determined.

Oh, now we entering dangerous biologistic channels... I am

ok, but we are biological items :)

True, but our determination does not come from being natural beings, but 
from being societal humans. An explanation of social processes using 
biological terms is a biologistic one and thus misleading and dangerous.


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